Hello Wisconsin: Halfway Through Season, Debate Still Raging on Jordan Love
A look at where the Packers are at halfway through their self-assessment season.
By TimBackes
The Green Bay Packers are officially more than halfway through their 2023 season.
The theme of the ‘23 season was always going to be the Packers finding out what they have in Jordan Love. Is he or is he not the quarterback of the future?
So far, there’s not a whole lot of clarity in that situation.
This isn’t necessarily an indictment of Love’s ability to be the Packers’ long-term answer at quarterback. But it has been a really unique set of circumstances, and those with prior convictions on either side of the debate will have plenty of data points they can use to “prove” themselves as having been correct this entire time.
Those who have been down on Love basically since his drafting will likely point to his completion percentage, especially his very low completion percentage on deep balls. They will also target his turnovers and the general lack of energy the offense had for basically the entire month of October.
Those who have been up on Love will point to some advanced metrics (EPA/play) and will note that Love has improved in terms of process and decision making, and that the offense seems to be getting more cohesive. Love has also been racking up more big-time throws of late, based on PFF’s metrics, and has increased deep ball accuracy in the last two weeks (seven of 11 total in that time on passes that traveled at least 20 yards in the air).
No matter what, there’s probably something you’ve seen out of Love that confirms everything you thought about him to begin with.
That’s one of the things that makes this season so unique. Love continues to show tantalizing talent, and yet is clearly still developing in some key areas as a passer.
Love is under contract for 2024 at a bargain barrel price for starting quarterbacks. The Packers were likely hoping they’d have a clear answer about Love’s capabilities before the season was over so they could potentially redo his contract in the offseason and adjust their draft strategy as needed.
There are still eight games left in which to assess Love, so the Packers are going to exit the season with nearly twice as much data as they currently have. So at this point, any attempts to proclaim Love’s abilities (or lack thereof) to succeed as the Packers’ long term starter are not worthwhile.
From my perspective, it’s hard not to notice the progress the offense has made in the last couple weeks. If that progress continues against Los Angeles, all the better. That’s what this season is all about. Keep improving, and then the wins will come. The win/loss record for this year is mostly irrelevant so long as progress happens steadily. That’s what made October so concerning–not only were they losing, but they kept getting worse and worse while doing so.
There are going to be more Steelers games that happen this season. But Jordan Love also spent most of the game looking like a legitimate NFL starter.
He’s almost certainly not going to win over everyone before the end of the season, but if he continues to take steps forward like he did this past week, he will likely convince the Packers they do not need to be on the hunt for a quarterback early in the 2024 draft.
But if we get another October-like stretch this season, then nothing will be off the table come the spring.
Wisconsin Beer of the Week
Central Waters Brewing Company is one of the very finest breweries in Wisconsin, and I have regularly featured them in this space over the years. They’ve really made a name for themselves in the world of barrel aging, but they do many different styles quite well.
In the late summer I was browsing the shelves at my local Woodman’s and came across a new CW beer I had not previously seen: Iconic, a fruited sour.
Here’s how Central Waters describes it:
“Reminiscent of a cherry limeade slush from the local drive-in restaurant, this easy drinker is the perfect way to cool off on a hot summer day.”
Now, obviously we’re well past hot summer days here in Wisconsin, but I still have a couple of these bad boys left in my fridge, and they still go down just as nice on brisk autumn days, even if the flavors are slightly out of season at this point.
The flavors that are in this do work together very nicely, and it does indeed taste like more of a dessert than a beer. That’s why I consider it a sort of post-dinner treat in the evening.
You might still be able to find these at your local liquor store or at the Milwaukee and Amherst tap rooms. Hopefully this is one that comes back into the brewery’s rotation, because I quite enjoyed it.
And if it’s not still available, be sure to try stuff from Central Waters beyond just their standard flagship beers; there’s a lot of really great stuff!
Matt LaFleur is missing the point
Earlier this week, Matt LaFleur was asked a question about how the Packers’ defense is consistently going with only two down linemen in situations where the opponent is more likely to run, and where it makes sense to go big and stack the box.
LaFleur pounced on the question with a little bit of spiciness, saying the Packers in those situations consider the outside linebackers to be defensive ends.
But really, LaFleur was arguing semantics while missing the point, perhaps even intentionally. The spirit of the question is not about how many defensive linemen the Packers are using, but rather how they are playing these rush-likely scenarios.
Over and over again we see the Packers going light in the middle and not bringing in a run-stuffing personnel package. Players are back from the line of scrimmage and leaving a soft middle open in the defense. This is happening while the Packers are backed up against their own goal line on defense, when you’d think you would adjust your personnel to match the scenario in the game.
This is one of the most consistently maddening things about Joe Barry and his scheme. No matter how many times this philosophy is proven to not work, he still keeps doing it, and makes scheme choices that no eight year old playing Madden would even consider.
In answering the question in this way, there is one of two things going on with LaFleur:
- He’s intentionally avoiding the point of the question to try not to levy criticism toward Barry, or
- He’s genuinely missing the point and may actually be missing what everyone who watches the Packers’ defense (including opposing coaches) is catching
Now, I believe LaFleur is not a dumb person. So I refuse to believe the second option is what’s happening here.
If the first option, then, is what’s going on, it makes me concerned for the future. Will Barry be brought back for 2024?
LaFleur has shown over and over again that he lags behind public criticism when it comes to personnel and staffing choices. I truly do believe there’s a good possibility that LaFleur would bring back Barry out of loyalty, and possibly a very real chance he doesn’t see Barry as bearing responsibility for the defense’s deficiencies.
But at this point, every coach preparing for the Packers knows Barry and his defense for what they are, and so too do fans of the team. So long as Barry is employed by this team there is a pretty low cap on what this team can achieve, even if the other pieces start to fall into place.
Retention of Barry should be considered a fireable offense when the offseason arrives.
Around the NFC North
As always, it’s time to go around the NFC North.
- The CHICAGO BEARS still suck.
- The DETROIT LIONS have two divisional games within the span of just a handful of days to potentially create an insurmountable separation in the division before the month of December, which is something that we haven’t seen out of this team in… well, forever. They have their first matchup against the Bears this weekend and should be able to take care of business at home, then a matchup against the Packers at home for their traditional Thanksgiving Day game. For the Lions to be entering the month of December in this position and still gaining momentum says a lot about the job Dan Campbell has done with this team since the midway point of the 2022 season.
- The MINNESOTA VIKINGS got a second unexpected win in a row with Josh Dobbs in as quarterback, and suddenly find themselves back in the wild card hunt in the NFC. It remains to be seen whether Dobbs is going to be able to continue to keep the ship afloat, but for those who like underdog stories, he’s a great one right now in the NFL. Unfortunately, he plays for the Vikings, so hopefully this Cinderella never gets as far as the ball.
THIS or THAT in Mr. Backes’s room: Week 11 Update
As I’ve done the last several weeks, I’m going to give a quick update as to the latest THIS or THAT polls in my classroom.
Without further ado:
- Sightseeing vacations defeated relaxation vacations
- Bucks overwhelmingly defeated Packers
- Science squeaked by math
- Apple pie defeated pumpkin pie by a single vote
- I forgot to take a picture of Friday’s so I don’t remember what the poll was, hah
If you have additional THIS or THAT prompts you’d like to poll my high schoolers with, give your ideas in the comments! I’ve pulled a few from the comments so far.
ChatGPT predicts the Packers
On a lark, I decided to ask Chat GPT how the Packers would perform the rest of the season. Because the AI’s data only goes up to 2022, I had to feed it some basic information about the Packers this season. I made sure to emphasize:
-Jordan Love is the quarterback and has shown promise but has been uneven
-The wide receivers and playmakers have very little experience
-The defense has talent but is underperforming
I also provided the team’s record and who they’ve beaten so far.
So, for what it’s worth, here’s how ChatGPT thinks the Packers will perform this season.
“The Packers, led by Jordan Love and featuring a young and inexperienced receiving corps, face challenges in the upcoming games. The defense, despite having talent, struggles to consistently perform at its best. The team experiences a mix of wins and losses, with occasional glimpses of promise but overall struggles with consistency. The remaining schedule presents tough matchups, and the Packers may find it challenging to secure victories against strong opponents. In the end, the team finishes the season with a record that reflects a transitional period, highlighting both the potential for growth and the difficulties associated with adapting to a new starting quarterback and young receiving group. The final record may fall below expectations, showcasing the team's need for further development and adjustments in the post-Aaron Rodgers era.”
Predictions for Packers vs. Chargers and Week 11
The Packers had one of their better performances in recent weeks, but the inexperience and unreliability was too much for them to overcome as they fell to the Steelers. That’s the kind of performance I expected from the Packers this season, and I expect we’ll see it again.
The offense is putting it together, but they need more consistency from their playmakers. Jordan Love has been showing signs of improvement, but it would be a significant help if he had someone around him he could trust on as a go-to guy in clutch situations. The defense… hoo boy.
Ultimately, the Chargers have more talent and experience on their roster and should be able to win easily, but nothing ever comes easily for the Chargers, so I’m expecting this one to be closer than it has any right being. Packer fans will take over LA and this will be competitive, but the Packers will ultimately fall short in a winnable game yet again.
Chargers 27, Packers 20
LAST WEEK: 8-6
SEASON TO DATE: 93-56
This week…
RAVENS over Bengals
BROWNS over Steelers
DOLPHINS over Raiders
LIONS over Bears
JAGUARS over Titans
CHARGERS over Packers
TEXANS over Cardinals
COWBOYS over Panthers
COMMANDERS over Giants
49ERS over Buccaneers
BILLS over Jets
SEAHAWKS over Rams
BRONCOS over Vikings
CHIEFS over Eagles
PLEASE SUBSCRIBE TO OUR CHEESEHEAD NATION WEEKLY NEWSLETTER HERE.
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Tim Backes is a lifelong Packer fan and a contributor to CheeseheadTV. Follow him on Twitter @timbackes for his Packer takes, random musings and Untappd beer check-ins.
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Comments (71)
Coldworld
November 16, 2023 at 10:13 am
To me it’s impossible to untangle Love from the inexperience and visible coaching questions all around him. The more pressing debate should be over the handling of the team as a whole. That has already unearthed visible problems beyond youth and inexperience, the core of which are repeating from prior years.
pantz_bURp
November 16, 2023 at 10:45 am
I agree Cold. Half way through the season, I am looking at the coaching staff more than #10.
As always, Go PACK Go
Hanky in the back pocket Pantz
*Or, 8 ball in the corner pocket. Barkeep how about another and while your up...pass those beer nutz down here please.
KnockTheSnotOutOfYou
November 16, 2023 at 12:54 pm
As always a good assessment CW!
Heyjoe414
November 16, 2023 at 02:36 pm
Yeah one argument goes - it's hard to evaluate Love because of so many inexperienced players at impact positions.
OK, fine. I think the reason it's hard to evaluate Love is the lousy position the GM put him. Not just the inexperience at the receiver position, but the awful play of the OL. That includes hanging onto Bakh for too long and ignoring the OL in the offseason.
That said, I don't see a budding franchise QB in Love - just don't see it. I'd much rather see Murphy leave a year early so a new president can properly evaluate the GM and HC. Start at the top. And get rid if that awful org structure where everyone reports to Murphy.
SweetPotatoGB
November 16, 2023 at 10:23 am
We gotta just let this season play out, one week at a time. However unlikely it is for the Packers to get a win over the Chargers this week, I'm rooting for the upset. Go Pack Go!
KnockTheSnotOutOfYou
November 16, 2023 at 12:58 pm
Just me...but show growth and improvement the rest if the year and a top 5 draft choice ending with Marvin Harrison and I am at least trying to do handsprings. With gradual improvent and heady drafting of a WR1, and big bodies on both sides of the lines I truly believe in Love and the Packers in 2024.
Coldworld
November 16, 2023 at 01:41 pm
Big bodies may require more than drafting them: a change in the approach to both OL and DL schemes and coaching seems necessary if that is to yield dividends. We like light and agile on both lines and have for years. When we’ve had the bigger bodies, they struggle to get snaps.
Since'75
November 16, 2023 at 10:28 am
Well, according to God, i mean, Mark Murphy.
There should be no debate at this point.
Murphy said that after a half a season they'll be able to tell what they have at QB.
When is his presser?
In reality, as i have stated since before the season started.
Love should get this season, and maybe into next season to showcase, based on the inexperienced skill players .
It's one thing to have inexperience receivers and tight ends, or to have an inexperienced QB.
But to have both at the same time? C 'MON MAN.
To me that is dereliction of duty on Gutes part, period.
Sorry if that makes anyone sad.
Coldworld
November 16, 2023 at 10:53 am
Mark Murphy, Murphy Takes 5, Packers website, Nov 5th, 2023:
“Young players often take time to find consistency, but we still very much believe in Jordan and are excited to see his continued development.
In 2008, after eight games we had seen enough of Aaron Rodgers to sign him to a contract extension. Aaron was in a much different situation, though, as we had good veteran receivers in Donald Driver and Greg Jennings, a quality left tackle in Chad Clifton and a good running game with Ryan Grant.
Jordan, meanwhile, is facing a much different situation with young receivers and tight ends, no David Bakhtiari and a struggling run game. It wouldn’t be fair to judge Jordan now since there are so many other factors that have contributed to the offense’s poor performance (e.g., dropped passes, penalties, mental errors).
We should have a much better sense regarding Jordan at the end of the season. In the NFL, quarterback is the most important position, but also the hardest position to play.”
Since'75
November 16, 2023 at 03:00 pm
Mark Murphy....ok....lol
Didn't Murphy say they'd have a read on what kind of QB Love is halfway through?
Yes, young QB's often need time to find consistency.
That's also harder to accomplish when he's playing with a bunch of rookies and a 2nd year receiver (Watson) who has regressed.
Luckily Doubs has shown slight improvement.
He has played more this season, and he doesn't lead the Packers in drops, that's Musgrave now.
Yes, Jordan is in a difficult situation with young receivers and tight ends, but whose fault is that?
Whose job is that?
Am i the only one here who can admit Gute has been dropping the ball?
Maybe it's easier for me to talk about it because i'm not always guzzling down the Packer kool aid.
Do we know who the #1, #2, and #3 receivers are?
Right now, a rookie is their #1 receiver. and their rookie tight end is #3
Last years #2 is now #5.
Next season it may be different yet.
This offense has no identity.
You can still judge Jorden Love to a certain degree.
He doesn't get a full pass on everything because Jones isn't playing well, or because Gute didn't set him up well.
Who's fault is it when he throws long, or when he throws short and it gets picked off?
Bearmeat
November 16, 2023 at 02:54 pm
It doesn't make me sad, 75. It's obvious why they were put in this situation: They paid for the 21 and 22 seasons on the credit card. The bill comes due. There are very few veteran TEs/WRs that we could have afforded who would measurably improve the performance on the field. What they would have done is kicked the young uns off the field. In other words, Reed, Kraft and Wicks. It sure as hell wouldn't have been Watson, Musgrave, and Doubs.
Would you make the trade for Marcedes Lewis or a Randall Cobb type for a Kraft or Wicks taking their lumps now? I wouldn't.
This team topped out at .500 in potential going into the year, barring a miracle. Well, they're 1-5 in one-score games. So there goes that. The playoffs are out. Why not take your lumps now, gain experience, clear the cap, and start to open your window in 25/26 in 2023?
Since'75
November 17, 2023 at 04:32 pm
Bearmeat,
Appreciate you, but If i may.......
The offense 'being what it is', is not the fault of kicking the cash can down the road for 3 years.
The offense being what it is, is due to the fact of ...
A) Bad draft picks on offense that never panned out. I'd list them, but i doubt it's necessary.
B) All the resources, free agent money in 2019, high draft picks, going towards the defense.
You don't build a decent offense in one off season getting high priced free agents. That is fools gold.
You get them through the years, one here, one there, and so on. But again...none of them panned out for Gute, or the Packers.
Then when Adams left, which he knew would happen. Then Gute went on a knee jerk desperation draft spree of picking up 8 wr's and tight ends in the '22 and '23 draft.
THAT...is why the offense is so young.
THAT...is how we got here.
**************************
"Why not take your lumps now, gain experience, clear the cap, and start to open your window in 25/26 in 2023?"
Well, that is what has to happen, not many other choices, but it's not just wr's and tight end we need, it's OL (LT), probably safety, a rb, ilb, guard, now maybe a corner again....what happened to Stokes, is he still trick or treating?
Dump Smith, let the 13th pick Van Ness start, that's what the 13th pick of the draft should be doing....starting.
I mean....C'MON!!
Hopefully Musgrave, Doubs, and Reed turn into consistent producers.
Not so sure Watson will ever be better than a cheap mans MVS or Jeff Janis.
We're all in the same Packer boat Bearmeat, we just have to row a lil harder, maybe get some new oars? I'm all in on that!!
WD
November 17, 2023 at 07:18 am
A good assessment. But, blaming Gute for dereliction of duty is a bit harsh. It was only a couple of years ago that the Packers had the best record in the NFL. The players now are all young and have not reached their full potential. Rome was not built in a day. A little patience is called for.
T7Steve
November 16, 2023 at 10:28 am
Fix the O-line and use a D-line or even Pat M. from the Chiefs would be a failure here, as #12 proved last season.
You can't gloss over the LOS! A competent QB can gloss over a lot of other things like coaching and young receivers but can't overcome 6 or 7 on 11.
Since'75
November 16, 2023 at 10:38 am
That made me think of something i used to say in the past sometimes Steve.....
Rodgers can cover up poor receivers.
He can cover up a poor offensive line.
But he can't cover up both.
T7Steve
November 16, 2023 at 10:51 am
Maybe when you used to say it, he could move better, but when he could move, we had a top 5 O-line quite regularly.
It all starts with the line or the big uglies if you will. That's why all the successful QBs and running backs all gifted their lines at Christmas and the end of seasons, especially if they won awards or some other type of recognition.
Since'75
November 16, 2023 at 02:16 pm
Ok, he could....
My point being, if you have issues at both, maybe that's not an ideal situation for a newly starting QB.
Since'75
November 16, 2023 at 10:34 am
".........Love has improved in terms of process and decision making...."
Was that said with a straight face?
I watched the last 4 minutes of the Steeler game
I didn't see great decision making, or great throws, but if you feel good about it, that's what matters.
RCPackerFan
November 16, 2023 at 10:42 am
" truly do believe there’s a good possibility that LaFleur would bring back Barry out of loyalty, and possibly a very real chance he doesn’t see Barry as bearing responsibility for the defense’s deficiencies."
If LaFleur brings Barry back, it will be his undoing. Most want LaFleur gone already. Well most on this webpage and twitter X. But if he brings back Barry when he has had multiple chances to let him go, he will be on a very hot seat.
"In answering the question in this way, there is one of two things going on with LaFleur:
-He’s intentionally avoiding the point of the question to try not to levy criticism toward Barry, or
-He’s genuinely missing the point and may actually be missing what everyone who watches the Packers’ defense (including opposing coaches) is catching"
I definitely believe its option 1. I feel like LaFleur feels stuck. I don't doubt at all that he now wishes he would have pulled the plug last offseason. But in his mind he likely wanted to keep the defense going based on how they finished last year and based on having continuity going into the season. He knew he was going to be having a first time starting QB, to go with all young WR's and TE's. So he wanted the defense to lead the team and allow the offense to grow on their terms. But now he is stuck with a DC that continues to do the exact same things over and over and expects a different result. He has a DC that rarely puts his players in best position to succeed. I feel like he feels stuck because he doesn't have anyone that he trusts can be the DC this year. SO he is trying to get by for the rest of the year, and will make a move this offseason. So rather then sending blame towards others, he just takes it himself and he tries to divert questions.
Since'75
November 16, 2023 at 10:52 am
My guess is Barry will be dismissed, but only because, they have to have a 'fall guy' at the end of the season, and it isn't going to be the two who got contract extensions not too long ago.
RCPackerFan
November 16, 2023 at 11:04 am
We knew this was a rebuilding year. The GM, the HC both knew. The HC and GM both said we need to temper expectations of Love and our team. But at the same time we heard them say that we expect our defense to carry us while our young offense is learning. Murphy I believe even said that we will be winning by having a solid running game and a good defense. So everything that has happened shouldn't be a surprise.
I believe the way the season ended last year the HC decided that they could take the gains of last year, add a couple of key pieces and we would be set to do well this year defensively. The GM gave the DC what he needed to have a solid defense. The DC has not done what he needed to have a solid defense.
So IMO the only one that deserves to go this year is the DC. Now with that being said most felt that the HC need to let him go a while ago so that is a red mark against the HC.
Since'75
November 16, 2023 at 12:59 pm
I just needed to read the first two sentences.
If we knew this was a rebuilding year, why wouldn't/won't the Packers acknowledge it?
*********************
It reminded me that i was going to write the top 5 excuses raised this season.
Also, a reporter asked Gute what this seasons expectations and goals were.
The GM actually said......"the same as they are every season in Green Bay"
I think it's safe to assume that meant a Championship.
I don't recall the GM ever telling us to temper expectations of Love and of this season..
But if you can link that, i'd surely give it a read.
I can remember MLF saying it, and Murphy talking about the defense stepping up.
I'll wait for that link patiently though.
*************
For those interested, Bill Huber wrote about where GM's sit in PFF rankings, Since Adams, then Rodgers left, Gute has been sinking. Gute has fallen to the bottom of tier 2, after this season i see that going further south.
Here is the last paragraph of his article.
"Ultimately, Spielberger correctly says, Gutekunst's tenure will be judged by whether he’s found or can find a quarterback capable of living up to the “impossibly high standard” set by Rodgers. For now, that player is Love, the player Gutekunst traded up to get instead of adding an immediate contributor to a championship contender. For better or worse, that one decision will forever be Gutekunst’s legacy."
RCPackerFan
November 16, 2023 at 01:20 pm
Gutey said it. It was before the season started. I don't remember when exactly. I'm not wasting my time looking through all the press conferences for it. If you don't believe me, then go find it.
I really don't care where PFF ranks anyone. What I care about is the product on the field and what we have for talent and if we are improving.
These last 2 drafts by Gutey have been pretty damn good overall. The offense is starting to turn it on. Don't' be surprised if they have a major break out game soon.
Yes, Gutey's decision to draft Love will forever be linked to him. We will find out in the future if it was the smart move or if it was the one that possibly cost us a chance at the super bowl with Rodgers.
Since'75
November 16, 2023 at 05:43 pm
Yea RC, i'll take your word and...agreed, it isn't worth looking up, but.....i do know he answered a reporters question how he did.
Btw...i rarely ever watch Packer video's, i skip the lip service unless i hear it on the radio or someone brings it up.
Thanks RC
Coldworld
November 16, 2023 at 11:05 am
For you’re “stuck”, I read “out of ideas”. We all agreed, with little to no dissent, that his retention of Barry last year tied him tightly to that decision and the stated justification that continuity was our biggest need. Well we have that. The D is a carbon copy.
Last year’s retention makes it impossible for LaFleur to differentiate Barry from himself when such failings repeat. It also makes firing Barry probably fruitless and an admission of failure on the part of LaFleur. Firing Barry and retaining LaFleur this year isn’t going to fool anyone.
It’s also not going to solve the other problems on the staff. As a decent D would have allowed us to win the game last week, but a great one probably doesn’t get us over .500 against a weak schedule for the most part.
Barry should have gone last year. At this point his continued exposure, coupled with that of the rest of the team without Rodgers is now exposure of LaFleur. LaFleur is Hans Christian Anderson’s Emperor. Barry merely one of the tailors he hired and allowed himself to believe in.
That is ironic, because he equally pulled the wool over Murphy’s eyes to get hired. He’s a communicator with no substance and 5 years on there’s no Rodgers or learning curve to hide behind.
Fire Barry, he’s not up to it, but expect no meaningful change. Change only comes with finding an emperor who can see what is real and has a tangible conception of how to realize it. That the smooth communicator is losing his cool is just a sign that the mountebank has no more illusions left.
RCPackerFan
November 16, 2023 at 11:12 am
I get why LaFleur kept Barry, but the decision was flawed. I didn't agree with it then and wished he would have severed ties with him. This was a rebuilding year so why not rebuild the entire team.
Doug_In_Sandpoint
November 16, 2023 at 10:42 am
“Packer fans will take over LA and this will be competitive”
The game better be at Lambeau as I am flying in for it. It would suck if I’m in an empty stadium. Gold package will bring the W.
TimBackes
November 16, 2023 at 10:53 am
Oops... why did I think this was in LA?!?! I'm losing it, hah.
Since'75
November 16, 2023 at 10:53 am
Lol...yea, i saw that also.
T7Steve
November 16, 2023 at 10:59 am
You'd be able to upgrade your seats easily though. Get right behind the bench and not even be blocked out of the near side of the field.
Doug_In_Sandpoint
November 16, 2023 at 12:48 pm
Ok, now I’m bragging, but our seats are already 9th row, 42 yard line, behind the Packer wives/families. Doesn’t get much better…
Since'75
November 16, 2023 at 10:49 am
I like it when writers post their predictions.
So, i'm going to do what i did last week, and predict a Packers win.
I'm not going to try and guess points scored because i think that is silly .
I once again pick the Packers to win for the same reason as last Sunday, because i think a win is possible
So i guess what i'm sayin is.......there's a chance!! 😏😁
TarynsEyes
November 16, 2023 at 10:57 am
"Love continues to show tantalizing talent,"
Love has shown nothing that can be construed as 'tantalizing'.
Perhaps, had Love given us one game along the lines of Stroud, the jury might not be split on him still, but his best game hasn't moved the needle to his favor, and that is more indicting than using his worse game as reason to move on. The upside seems to have flattened, against bad teams. He needs a huge 'blow the house down' game, even if a loss to a better team.
I still stand by my HC/QB matchups, and whether each had a new compliment, neither can dismiss what has been revealed of both. One is a fraud, and the other a won't be.
T7Steve
November 16, 2023 at 11:06 am
The coach has to put an O-line in front of a QB for him to succeed.
Can't put a cart before the horse and expect efficient travel (progress).
Remember the QBs best friend? The running game? Watch how the Chargers start attacking on Sunday even though they have generational talent at QB.
RCPackerFan
November 16, 2023 at 11:08 am
The problem with Love is that his supporting cast has not been very supportive.
The strength of the offense was supposed to be the OL and RB's. Well after game 1 Bakhtiari was lost for the season. Jenkins got hurt and has just now started to get back to his pro bowl form. Runyan has simply not been good enough. Tom has been a stud, and Myers has been probably average.
Our RB's have been basically the same. Jones missed a big portion of the year, and Dillon was not performing well. At least until these last couple of games.
So the strength of the offense became a weakness. And at the same time we have been relying on rookies and 2nd year guys catching passes.
TarynsEyes
November 16, 2023 at 11:49 am
The lead role, sometimes, has to carry the supporting cast to make something worth watching, less paying for. Love isn't that level of role leader, no matter how many cast members say so in pressers. What such does bring to my attention, is the low level of play that had those players embracing him. After three years of tutoring, Love still plays lost, and that is a bar the youth shouldn't be embracing, and now, lost seems to be contagious.
The Chargers Defense can be obliging, and that does Love no favors. I need Love to make the Chargers feel like they're getting beat from the start, and not during their usual 4th Quarter meltdowns, as that will not move the needle in his favor.
RCPackerFan
November 16, 2023 at 01:02 pm
The difference being that there is no script written. These are players all learning the game together. All of them seeing brand new things together. They are reading the same book, but they are reading it at different speeds. Some are on chapter 10, some are still at chapter 5.
We have no clue how good Love will or won't be. With the inexperience around him, he hasn't really been given a fair chance. And with the injuries to the OL, Jones, and Watson, that hasn't helped things either.
These last 2 games though he has looked much better. Possibly things are starting to turn around. We can only take this one game at a time. So have patience and lets see where we are when the season is over.
Coldworld
November 16, 2023 at 11:21 am
I disagree. Love has talent and shown it. Whether he has the whole package is yet to be clear. Rodgers was the same, if although somewhat better but on a better offense and better led team in 2008.
It’s too early to write Love off or in. He’s better than the former and yet to show he’s the latter. He’s also operating in a mess of an offense and, like Rodgers was, relying on a D that undermines the O when it does succeed.
LaFleur, starting with his failure to deliver a running game, largely due to more O line issues, another hangover, and Barry have contrived to make him play from behind almost continually. That’s the worst scenario for a new starting QB.
Dragon5
November 16, 2023 at 11:04 am
"Retention of Barry should be considered a fireable offense when the offseason arrives."
A valid, key point, Tim...BUT THAT WAS SSSOOO LAST YEAR!!!
Jerry Gray told us all we needed to know last year, but did so professionally, taking the high road. And I highly suspect his decision wasn't majority based on Joe Barry, but from the top down.
T7Steve
November 16, 2023 at 11:08 am
So sad where we've come to.
Tough to even entice good coaching candidates let alone top FAs.
LeotisHarris
November 16, 2023 at 04:47 pm
"Jerry Gray told us all we needed to know last year, but did so professionally, taking the high road. And I highly suspect his decision wasn't majority based on Joe Barry, but from the top down."
That would be a better harbinger if Jerry hadn't sought refuge in Atlanta as their Assistant Head Coach/Defense. Then again, how bad must it have been for him that his frazzled mind saw the Falcons as a step up? Jerry jumped from the Titanic into the sweet ,clear water of the North Atlantic.
Bitternotsour
November 16, 2023 at 10:44 pm
It is pro football, he is getting paid.
Also, you're in Atlanta, not Green Bay.
T7Steve
November 17, 2023 at 08:18 am
What?
You think Atlanta is an improvement to Green Bay?
I guess I've said enough. Rural people want city people to STAY in their cities because they act superior and generally wreck the culture of the rural places they go. Have to keep them believing "the city's where it's at".
Bitternotsour
November 17, 2023 at 04:43 pm
Yeah them damn city people and their learning and whatnot. They all want to go out to good dinners and have entertainment options and the opportunity to interact with the other smart ones. Also, the whole culture thing is way overblown, I mean, isn't interacting with the other 40 black people on the roster enough for these people?
So, yes. Atlanta is a superior environment to living in Green Bay. The weather is better, entertainment options are far superior. You may not have noticed, but Aaron Rodgers sure as hell didn't spend the offseason in Green Bay.
HawkPacker
November 16, 2023 at 11:16 am
A couple of things that I would like to bring up and I have discussed this in the past:
" truly do believe there’s a good possibility that LaFleur would bring back Barry out of loyalty, and possibly a very real chance he doesn’t see Barry as bearing responsibility for the defense’s deficiencies."
Last year, I made the statement that Barry should be let go and that if he was not then LaFleur will have a lot of pressure on him if Barry does not work out! Well guess what, Barry is not working out and both he and LaFleur need to hit the road. We wasted a year with Barry and we can't get that back. I am okay with Gute, possibly Ball and I guess we will have to wait out Murphy when he retires!
"The theme of the ‘23 season was always going to be the Packers finding out what they have in Jordan Love. Is he or is he not the quarterback after the future?
So far, there’s not a whole lot of clarity in that situation. "
I have said all along that this is the most important thing for us packer fans this year. Is Love the man?
I am hoping that he is because it would make drafting these next few years much easier. Plus, I really like his demeaner and his 'team first' attitude. Just seems like a great guy to have on your team. Never complains or throws any players under the bus.
At this point, I have no idea if he is our QB of the future. This is so important for us. It is hard to judge him because of the OL issues, rookie TE's and young WR's.
I sure hope we know by the end of the season!
TarynsEyes
November 16, 2023 at 01:16 pm
One should believe that the FO/HC knew what Love had to feel secure in fielding such a young team. I think they overrated Loves' progress over the three seasons of tutoring, and now find themselves immersed in a dense fog of unknowing.
cben67
November 16, 2023 at 12:41 pm
Love has shown poise and leadership. I still question his accuracy. I want to see him hitting receivers in stride. I don't know if this is not happening enough because of Love, or because the new receivers are not yet on the same page, or because of the offensive play calling.
T7Steve
November 16, 2023 at 02:40 pm
Or all of the above.
A little leak can be plugged. When you have a bunch of leaks, start bailing and get off the boat as quick as possible.
Doug_In_Sandpoint
November 16, 2023 at 01:00 pm
Regarding the verdict on Love, it’s still early, but I think he will be OK to pretty good. I hope I’m wrong , but I do not think he will be a first ballot HOFer. Generational quarterbacks are tough to find and are even rarer outside of the top 10 of the draft. So the way I see it, we ride with Love until we actually have a shot at a high pick in the draft. If we pick top 10 we look for “that guy”. Otherwise we go with Jordan. After all, it’s not like we have a lot of options.
RCPackerFan
November 16, 2023 at 01:23 pm
The thing is Love doesn't have to be a generational QB for us to win a super bowl. The key is to build the team around him.
Something that hasn't been talked about enough is Loves ability to make throws at all different platforms. He was being sacked and somehow threw the ball left handed to avoid a sack. That doesn't' go in the stat sheet but was a great play by him. As he gets more comfortable the better he will play and the better our team will play. Also once the young WR's figure things out we will become very dangerous.
T7Steve
November 16, 2023 at 02:47 pm
"The thing is Love doesn't have to be a generational QB for us to win a super bowl. The key is to build the team around him."
Did you steal that from me? We can't be thinking that close in line!
I always use the Eli Manning example. If you don't have a team it doesn't matter. Look at Dan Marino, Philip Rivers and a bunch of others that could out play him.
He caught lightning in a bottle and DID make some plays just at the right times, though. Something Jim Kelly (sp?) couldn't catch.
RCPackerFan
November 16, 2023 at 05:45 pm
I didn't see yours but I would go with we have great common sense. :)
With the Eli Manning, I would much rather have the Aaron Rodgers then Eli Manning. But you can win with an Eli Manning.
The biggest key is to build the team around him for now. In a year or 2 we will know if he is the next Rodgers or the next Eli type.
Packerpasty
November 16, 2023 at 05:14 pm
Sure, he'll be "OK"...middle of the road QB with little "wow factor"....the Packers can win with him but they need a really good roster around him...I think a vet WR and a new RB..Jones and Dillon arent cutting it, Jones is showing his football age....Dan Orlovsky was on the Tank Top guys show and said about Love that you have to take his completion rate with a grain of salt because his 4-5 yard passes are a little off the mark most times so the WR has to reach back or jump up for the ball and these if hit in stride should be 8-9 yard gains...he's still got a whole lot of growing to do...so how many years of coaching will it take?? For the sake of the Packers I hope just this season...im not willing to say "give him another year" after this season...but then im not the GM...
RCPackerFan
November 16, 2023 at 06:16 pm
Right now we have no clue where he will be. Will he be a top 10, a 11-20, a 21-32 type of of QB? Currently I would put him in the 20ish range. The hard part is he has not had the experienced talent around him to know how good or bad he really is. The one deep ball to Doubs for example. If the WR is running a certain route like he ran, the veteran may go underneath the DB to have more space, rather then going outside and being pinned to the sideline. Its little things like those that separate the youth from the experienced.
I'm not concerned with the completion rate. He has not been perfect. We can see that. Some of it maybe nerves. Some of it maybe pressing or thinking to much. I feel like these last 2 games he has been much better. This last game the completion percentage wasn't great, but his throws were much better.
He has a ton of growing to do. He has talent, and he needs to trust that talent. A lot of his throws (up until the last couple of games) looked like he was trying to push the ball rather then letting it go. This last game he definitely looked to be letting it go more.
Moving forward. If they have a top 5 pick and one of the top QB's are there. I would definitely consider it. You don't want to pass on a top QB. But, if they feel like Love is the guy, they could get a Haul for that spot, if one of the QB's are on the board. That will work itself out. For this year though, lets just hope we see improvements that can build on for next year.
ricky
November 16, 2023 at 01:05 pm
We should all be calling in every favor we can to hope that Love can be a consistent winner in the NFL. If he's not, the Packers will join a lot of other teams who are looking for their QB. For some, it's just "draft your franchise QB in this year's draft." Sure, and hope you don't draft the many, many failures who were "can't miss prospects". Getting a veteran QB is also a possibility. But do you really want a two year rental on a guy in his late 30's/early 40's to lead your team? And then have him "mentor the guy we drafted." Ask the Jets how that is working out. I was hoping to see more from Love this year. Especially, improvement as the season progresses. But with all the coaching problems on this team, and hints that the team was tinkering with his way of throwing longer passes (that the coaches were trying to get him to put "more air under the ball"). And, yes. I do realize he has Clements as his QB coach. But if there is interference from the OC and/or the HC, or even others, well, too many cooks. And as far as Barry, this is simply unfathomable and unacceptable. It's as if LaFleur is being purposely stubborn just to prove he is right. And if a new DC is forced on him, there will be instant friction that could harm the team's dynamic. So, it might just be best if a reset is put in place.
Tailstails
November 16, 2023 at 01:16 pm
I am amazed at the number of excuses for Love's low performance that I see here. Our OL is bad (even though they rank 5th in pass protection), Love is inexperienced (really? compared to who? Brock Purdy, CJ Stroud...), Love's receiver's don't catch 50/50 balls (weak excuse), receivers drop passes (this is going to happen, but they are only in the middle of the pack statistically on drops), the coaches the coaches the coaches (really?).
What is true is that Love is not a rookie, but is playing worse than one. He is last/near last in completion percentage (even if you add in the drops), he is tied for the lead in interceptions, he can't throw downfield accurately, and he often misses the sweet spot for ball placement. I hate to say it, but we need to move on. Plenty of QB's available in the draft and we need to get one. Maybe Love will surprise us in '24 while the drafted rookie QB is getting up to speed. However, Love led all of NCAAF in interceptions his last year, and he's leading NFL this year. It seems like that is the one thing he is consistent at.
TXCHEESE
November 16, 2023 at 02:02 pm
Comparing Love to Purdy is laughable. Go look at the rosters dude. No, Love is not a rookie, but this is his first year with significant playing time. The encouraging thing I've seen with Love and the offense, is they have been able to get the lead back in the 4th quarter....and it's like 2008 all over again. The defense gives it right back, and they're forced to score in short order at the end of the game. Has Love had some head shaking throws at the end of those games. Yes. Young QB, playing with first and second year receivers. That's just part of learning the game at the NFL level.
Packerpasty
November 16, 2023 at 05:18 pm
I'm with ya on this...the excuses are getting tiring...but they wont stop till the season is over...then theyll start up all again next year..."its only his second year starting"...funny stuff...there are true rookies outplaying him...
s
CanPackFan
November 16, 2023 at 01:25 pm
I keep trying to evaluate an opinion of Love but the scientist in me says that are just too many uncontrollable variables to do so. And the only people that can address those variables are the coaching staff. And with this coaching staff, well ... enough said.
And the semantics game LaFleur played with reporters post game is very lame indeed! I guess he's just running out of good excuses to defend Barry and is trying a new tact? I don't listen to his "excuse-fests" post game any more as they are the same every week. I guess its just sheer arrogance/ego that prevents LaFleur from making urgently needed coaching changes? But that is not the mark of a good leader regardless.
bryno1234
November 16, 2023 at 01:34 pm
I don't like him. Too young to throw players under the bus so that is a non argument. Way too many interceptions. He is going to turn out to be a Cutler or a Fields so they need to dump him now before too late. He can't handle the pressure. His rating isn't close to what Rodgers had for his first year. At least Favre made plays to win games in light of a lot of interceptions. His last year at Utah State he threw SEVETEEN interceptions. He picked something up that last year and it is still with him.
Outside of this, don't you just love modern day sports articles written to get people to gamble instead of a fair analysis of what the game might be. We should go back to making sports betting illegal. Totally cheaps out the game and now you can't trust the game or the players because of the money that can be wagered on it. We are taking the sad path of Britain. One scary stat: 12% to 15% of English kids (11 to 15 Year olds) in 2017 said they gambled in the last week. Way sad.
NFLfan
November 16, 2023 at 01:35 pm
Hey Packer fans-
GOOD MORNING FOOTBALL'S JASON MCCOURTY honored Keisean Nixon on national TV today for this week's best defensive player.
They showed a video of his perfect tackling technique.
Keisean is one of my favorites.
Starrbrite
November 16, 2023 at 02:12 pm
“Tantalizing Talent”—-uuh—-NO!
“Retaining Barry is a fireable offense”—-yes indeed!!
Go Packers!!!
dobber
November 16, 2023 at 02:18 pm
"A look at where the Packers are at halfway through their self-assessment season"
Every season needs to be an assessment--and there's plenty to assess this season, no doubt--but the real organization-shifting assessment season was 2022. They needed to decide whether, in the face of diminishing cap and an aging QB (who would only eat more of said cap), they had the tools, the resources, and the pieces to make another run. We can argue all we want about what we think about ARod the person and his relationship with the Packers brass, but in a purely business sense, you don't trade away a guy you think you're going to win a SB with in the short term just because he pisses you off. That was the key assessment: they didn't think he was going to get them back to the SB.
I would argue the resulting decision had little to do with who was holding the clipboard.
"Around the NFCN"
The Bears won. The Lions won. The Vikings won.
**Shrugs**
"Prediction for Sunday"
I predict that I will be very frustrated with the outcome.
Chargers 37, Packers 24...and it won't feel that close.
13TimeChamps
November 16, 2023 at 03:54 pm
Chargers are scoring 26.5/game while GB is giving up 20.2/game.
Nor sure where you're seeing the Chargers putting up 37 in this game.
Coldworld
November 16, 2023 at 06:50 pm
They did put up 38 in their loss to the lions last time out.
brettnivinski
November 16, 2023 at 02:21 pm
I've read some of the comments and there are many valid points made. Yes, it is difficult to make an assessment when he is a first year starter surrounded by guys so inexperienced at the skilled positions.
More.importamtly, it is difficult to assess when the coaching staff is perhaps the biggest problem.moving forward across the board both on offense and defense. We are a draft and develop team. But if we have an inferior coaching staff unable to develop not just the quarterback ,but receivers,.line,.and we are.looking at a defense with eight first rounders that stinks up the joint on a regular basis. Is it the talent the GM is drafting or is it the coaching and trainers, or more than likely a combination of all of the above. In which case this becomes a cultural problem.
Lot of guys have been missing practice and games and one starts to wonder if some of these guys are a little lacking in heart or that they are having the heart coached out of them. Like the day you walked into high school chemistry desiring to learn only to have a teacher who didn't inspire, didn't know how to make it interesting or get the most out of you. Have the coaches made the game a little to complex and the guys always thinking what they should be doing and not doing what comes natural..digging in and getting after it.
Either way, we are going to be drafting very high next year. Taking a quarterback early is never a guarantee. Is will Levis better than Bryce young? Purdy ended up better than trey lance. There are a lot of Ryan Leafs. Bart Starr was a late round draft pick and as a coach he drafted a one in Rich Campbell who never played.
There is always better value trading down and picking up a bevy of draft picks while still drafting a left tackle stud.
Everyone wanted Lefleur to be with us for twenty years. The next Shula or Landry. But by his hiring and retention of Barry and his own rocket science offense one can see he probably is not the guy.
One starts to understand what Rodgers meant when he said simplify it. Unfortunately, by than Rodgers had become such the diva. But the game still comes down to blocking, tackling, hitting the hole hard and running to daylight. It's got a lot more to do with heart,desire, work ethic, the willing to sacrifice, to intangibles. Love of the game before love of the money.
I think a house cleaning is in order. Love might become a middle of the road guy, but I haven't seen anything special. Charisma, leadership. The type of guy the other guys are willing to go through a wall with and for
At some point, I'd like to see what Clifford has. Brady replaced Bledsoe. Purdy replaced Garapolo and Lance.
I understand wanting to be loyal to a guy, but let's not forget there are 53, and the backup might have more "it" in him.
And if he fails you can go back to Love. The idea of possibly giving a guy two years to prove it after three years as the understudy taking all the mini camp snaps and in season snaps while Rodgers nursed thumb and toe injuries seems a bit long while guys like Stroud and Levis look impressive from day one. That's not to mention Mr irrelevant.
Tailstails
November 16, 2023 at 02:33 pm
Good points, especially the comment that 5 years is too long of a test period for Love. If Love leads the NFL in picks and also lowest completion percentage in 2023, do we really need to give him another year? NFW.
Starrbrite
November 16, 2023 at 05:35 pm
Right—patience is not necessarily a virtue in the NFL.
TheBigCat
November 16, 2023 at 04:56 pm
Tim:
I learned long ago the Packers FO doesn't heed my advice (i.e. trading for Marshawn Lynch when he was available as a Bill), so I can't get too excited over something I have no control over (Packers). That's why i like this blog: You provide thought-provoking commentary on the Packers, but tangible insight on beer. As a UWSP grad, we spent many nights on the Square enjoying 3 Point Specials (aka Blue Bullets) for $1. As an PNW ex-pat, my beer of choice is Alaskan Amber, a very smooth, easy drinking beer. II was pleasantly surprised to find it was on tap at Jack's Cantina Bar and Grill in Abbotsford.
TOMMY'63
November 17, 2023 at 11:20 am
The level of play,quality of play is visible to everyone. He is and will always be an average qb. In any trades or professions in this world, you can tell immediately if a person is of the trade or profession, no? He is what he is ,mates!! He will and be what he was, average, full stop. Unfortunately since this club is publicly owned, Murphy will not intervene to sack " the flower " and his worthless associates. Many fans on this site approve a "the good art" Guttenkunst in german means the good art., of all of his drafts and transactions, I don't. There are many articles on Internet about his drafts and transactions. For me he learned from his predecessor, no comments for him, he's dead and did his incompetent damages, We need a new direction from top down to change this fc. New gm , to find a quality hc? Very difficult, the good ones are all taken. Maybe biennemie? Possibile? Don't think so,who to replace the flower and the good art?
TOMMY'63
November 17, 2023 at 11:25 am
The level of play,quality of play is visible to everyone. He is and will always be an average qb. In any trades or professions in this world, you can tell immediately if a person is of the trade or profession, no? He is what he is ,mates!! He will and be what he was, average, full stop. Unfortunately since this club is publicly owned, Murphy will not intervene to sack " the flower " and his worthless associates. Many fans on this site approve a "the good art" Guttenkunst in german means the good art., of all of his drafts and transactions, I don't. There are many articles on Internet about his drafts and transactions. For me he learned from his predecessor, no comments for him, he's dead and did his incompetent damages, We need a new direction from top down to change this fc. New gm , to find a quality hc? Very difficult, the good ones are all taken. Maybe biennemie? Possibile? Don't think so,who to replace the flower and the good art?