The Lass Word: Even Bart Starr Stayed Too Long
Aaron Rodgers should learn from history.
By KenLass
Aaron Rodgers has often said that he loves the Green Bay Packers and their fans. He has had issues with coaches and management, but he has steadfastly proclaimed his affection for the franchise and the excellence it stands for. As he decides his future this offseason, I’m sure Rodgers would love nothing better than to return to Green Bay and lead them to another Super Bowl title.
But deep down inside, surely he must have a sense of having stayed at the party a bit too long. Even the most legendary quarterback relationships eventually grow stale, putting both the player and the team in need of a fresh start. Johnny Unitas finished his career in San Diego after seventeen seasons with the Colts. Joe Montana eventually parted from the 49ers to play for the Chiefs. Peyton Manning found new life with Denver. Tom Brady at Tampa Bay. Brett Favre with the Vikings.
Still, one can imagine it’s difficult to bring yourself to leave a place where you are a legend, where you have invested so much of your life and effort, to start over at some other franchise where expectations will be off the chart and pressure will be immense. The safe thing, the comfortable thing, is to come back to your football home, a place where you have almost unlimited influence and power, and hang in there for as long as you can. But such decisions have a history of not ending well. Rodgers need only look back at the history of his own team for a lesson to be learned.
Bart Starr is, in my opinion, the greatest quarterback in Packers history. My opinion is unabashedly biased. Number fifteen was my childhood hero. I then had the thrill of meeting him and getting to know him during my four years of being a television sports anchor in Green Bay. Starr was the head coach of the Pack at that time. I might even be so bold as to claim him as a friend.
He did not possess the athletic ability, nor the stats, of Favre or Rodgers, but in terms of leadership, example, and certainly team success, he has no rival. Five championships in seven years, in an era when quarterbacks called their own plays. An era when defensive players were allowed to brutalize a quarterback. Starr’s poise in the clutch was unparalleled. He always seemed to play his best when the game, or a championship, was on the line. The drive to win the Ice Bowl on New Year’s Eve of 1967, capped by his iconic quarterback sneak, is the most famous. But it was only typical of his many game winning clutch performances during the green and gold dynasty of that decade.
In the 2020 NFL draft, General Manager Brian Gutekunst began to sense the time was right to start thinking about the long term future of the Packers’ quarterback position, and used his first round pick to draft Jordan Love out of Utah State. Love has languished on the bench for the last three seasons. In the 1967 NFL draft, General Manager and Coach Vince Lombardi also began thinking about the long term future at the position, and used his first round selection, number 25 overall, to take quarterback Don Horn out of San Diego State. It should be pointed out that, in that era, it was unheard of for rookie signal callers to come in and start immediately. They were expected to stay on the sideline, observe and learn for a couple of seasons.
After winning his third straight championship in 1967, having been voted MVP in both of the first two Super Bowls, Starr, now in his mid thirties, faced a decision similar to what Rodgers is facing now. He considered retirement, especially with an eager first round pick waiting in the wings. But his love for the Packers and for the game, and his competitive drive, motivated him to come back. He played reasonably well for the next two seasons. But with the great Lombardi now gone, and the nucleus of the Green Bay juggernaut aging, the Packers gradually dropped out of championship contention. Starr was beginning to have chronic injury problems, particularly with his shoulder and throwing arm. He began to miss games and his back-up, the highly drafted Horn, was looking pretty good in his stead. Horn started five games in 1969, leading the Packers to a 4–1 record and throwing for 1,500 yards and 11 touchdowns, pretty gaudy numbers for that time.
It was at that point, following an injury-plagued 1969, that Starr probably should have hung up the cleats. The Packers appeared ready to move on, and Starr had nothing more to prove. But the dedicated hero chose again to come back, and the Packers, knowing how beloved he was amongst the fans, felt obligated to play him. Starr stayed healthy most all of 1970, but his stats declined, as did the quality of his play, and the team finished 6-8. Still, the Packers tried to stick with their legend for the 1971 campaign, opting to trade Don Horn to the Denver Broncos for DL Alden Roche.
The bottom fell out for Starr that year. Now 37 years old, his body let him down, allowing him to start just three games, unable to win any of them. Incredibly, he still came to training camp trying to play in 1972, but simply couldn’t do it. He then retired and joined the coaching staff as the QB coach. The Packers would go on to endure a quarter century drought that didn’t end until the Super Bowl title of 1996.
To me, it’s a cautionary tale that applies, in some ways, to the current Aaron Rodgers dilemma. Even before his injury problems, in 1967, Starr sensed it was time to move on, but he chose to ignore it. Rodgers is facing much the same conflict of emotions right now.
Here’s hoping he might learn from history, so as not to repeat it.
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Ken Lass is a former Green Bay television sports anchor and 43 year media veteran, a lifelong Packers fan, and a shareholder.
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Comments (143)
dgtalmn
February 20, 2023 at 06:18 am
Only real problem is Rodgers is still playing strong, Starr was way done (yes I lived thru that too).
HarryHodag
February 20, 2023 at 08:11 am
I disagree. You could clearly see this year Rodgers was not the same Rodgers. One non-Packers scout did a review of Rodgers performance for one media outlet. The scout said it was clear to him that Rodgers no longer has his 'legs' which is core to a qb throwing and running.
It's time the fans start to realize that Father Time catches up to us all. I remember the debate when fans thought Brett Favre could play 10 more years. Wrong.
pantz_bURp
February 20, 2023 at 10:08 am
Both were quite successful in their own version of the QB sneak.
I honestly applaud #12 for choosing this darkness retreat. Could you imagine if he instead, chose to stay at a Holiday Inn?
Motel 6 was out of the question...you know why.
fastmoving
February 20, 2023 at 02:10 pm
this was a good one....he always finds a way to loooose when it counts since 10 years. Misses open WRs, holding the ball forever and having trust issues with everyone not named DA.
Stong is the last the chemtrailer is or was. Worst leader ever, even as he was good.
T7Steve
February 20, 2023 at 02:38 pm
Come on Danica.
NickPerry
February 20, 2023 at 06:36 am
"He did not possess the athletic ability, nor the stats, of Favre or Rodgers, but in terms of leadership, example, and certainly team success, he has no rival. Five championships in seven years, in an era when quarterbacks called their own plays. An era when defensive players were allowed to brutalize a quarterback. Starr’s poise in the clutch was unparalleled."
I vaguely remember watching the Packers with my Dad as far back as 1966. I remember that 1966 playoff game vs the Cowboys with Tom Brown sealing the game with his interception in the endzone. As a matter of fact I'm POSITIVE that's when I learned (From my Dad) it's okay to SCREAM at the TV during Packers games. I remember the "Ice Bowl" and the joy on my Dad's face when Bart scored on the most famous QB sneak in NFL history...Awww that good times.
I also remember a game that may have been one of Bart Starr's last games. My Dad and I were coming home from out cabin, listening to the Packers game on the radio. This was in 1970 or maybe 1971. The Packers were playing the Bears when Starr was smashed by Dick Butkus IIRC. By this time the Packers were struggling and had been for a few years. I'm not sure how many games Bart played in after that day, but I know it wasn't many. He was a SHELL of himself by them staying, hanging on a little too long.
I already know what Gute wants to do, he doesn't move up in the 1st round to pick Love if he wasn't ready. There's that and WHO he learned from which was Wolf and Ted Thompson. Ted was famous for cutting guys a year earlier than the fans thought he should, and Ted was usually right. Gute KNOWS it's time.
The Packers aren't a SB team. As much as that pains me to say, they just aren't there...YET. Rodgers has given me countless hours of enjoyment. That win vs Atlanta in the NFC Divisional game was one of the greatest games I've ever seen from Rodgers. The throw to Greg Jennings on 3rd and 10 in the 4th quarter of SB 45. The throw to Jordy vs the Vikings where it whistled by the Vikings Defenders earhole for a TD on Sunday Night Football are just a smidgen of of those hours. But the time is now, and for a multitude of reasons. get what you can and wish him the best. Once he does hang em up, bring him back and retire his number like he DESERVES.
greengold
February 20, 2023 at 06:40 am
If the Packers can work a trade, they should move forward with 100% confidence in doing so.
Somehow, the window remains open and there are suitors. Plural.
The time is now, now. Again. Very likely the last chance GB will get to realize a draft capital return.
Should the Packers trade AR, I could very easily see David Bakhtiari included in any deal for his services, especially if the trade partner is NYJ, whose cupboards are bare there.
Rodgers & Bakhtiari seem tied together, and packaging both players makes a lot of sense. Very symbiotic.
Anybody wanting AR enough to trade for him will want to win now, and most likely understand protecting AR’s blind side is paramount.
It would prove an enormous win-win for both teams involved.
The Packers realizing immense cap relief, while adding early picks could propel our new era forward. We are currently $17,000,000 over the cap & in the hole…
The Packers must face the reality that the team is not positioned to keep Aaron Rodgers, while expecting anything more than an even longer, more drawn out and perilous ceremonial exit. Limping into a new era is never good - and this new era is inevitable.
Green Bay’s future success would be best served realizing both cap relief & a sizable talent influx via players/picks by making this trade now.
In the immortal words of Kevin Greene, “Now’s the the time!”
How do you get out of the hole? Stop digging.
TheVOR
February 20, 2023 at 08:53 am
AS long as everyone realizes we're buying the draft capital! That contract, regardless of he goes, he stays, he retires, is a freekin NIGHTMARE!
If he stays, and gives it one more serious shot, at least we potentially have a MVP or comeback player of the year. If he goes, we hemorrhage cap to essentially "Buy" the draft capital (not a bad idea either). He he retires, it's a huge LOSE/LOSE proposition.
Finally, a Jordan Love trade could in fact present the team with draft capital as well, although be it to a much less significant extent.
If he doesn't retire I think we're ok either way. IF he retires, the organization stepped off a bridge with a cinder block tied around it neck and dropped into the ocean.
Coldworld
February 20, 2023 at 09:27 am
If he retires our cap position improves rapidly. That’s built into the agreement and really not even a subject of debate. I don’t believe that he will, but that’s simply not true as you state it.
As to your belief that Rodgers could have a potential MVP year, i think we just saw how unrealistic that is with this team and coaching and the play of his peers in the league. Could he guide a packed roster? Maybe, but we don’t and won’t have one while he’s here with the cap hole keeping him here in September triggers.
Leatherhead
February 20, 2023 at 02:35 pm
VOR:
1) He's not coming back. He's not welcome. They're disgusted with him. They're sold on Love. No more "one more shot".
2) The freakin' nightmare is that after we trade him, we're gonna be on the hook for $40 million dollars, which could be split 16/24 over two years. That's a lot of money to me, but not as much to an organization that makes $500 million/year. My hope is that Rodgers will make some concessions to get the landing spot he wants, but either way, he's gone and it'll be $40 million and it'll be over.
3). If he retires, we're on the hook for .....$40 million. He'd be forfeiting the right to quite a bit of money, almost $60 million, if he retires, which we could split 16/24 over two years. So...no real difference, cap-wise, between him retiring or being traded. No cinder block, no bridge.
4) So that's how much we're paying for that draft capital.
5) I can't believe a sane and rational person would think we should draft Love, train him for three years, and then get rid of him. When a person makes a statement like that, it makes me think their primary interest is have their Rodgers safety blanky around.
jurp
February 20, 2023 at 03:28 pm
RE. point 5. stockholder's been demanding just such a trade for months (years?) now. Just saying.
dobber
February 20, 2023 at 01:45 pm
"Rodgers & Bakhtiari seem tied together, and packaging both players makes a lot of sense."
You lose me when you reach this point pretty much every time.
greengold
February 20, 2023 at 02:04 pm
LOL, dobs. Follow me here... The Jets have virtually nothing on their OL. Nothing. Go ahead and search out any number of assessments out there for Jets OL Depth.
As a matter of fact, their OL cupboards are so bare, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if this became a blockbuster trade involving AR and 2 of his OL from GB that he knows & trusts, in one monster package deal.
Would it be worth it to the Packers? I mean, ... maybe!!! The Jets want to win it all now! Plug and play!!! Those were Woody Johnson's comments almost verbatim. The Packers are the perfect team for Johnson to deal with, because we have exactly what he needs. They have other players and draft capital to give to us, and that might wind up being a ton of future draft capital.
Is it really worth $60M over the next two seasons to have David Bakhtiari starting for us? Is this an expense the Packers can do without?
The Jets would be able to absorb a restructured Bakhtiari contract, just like they will be able to absorb a restructured Aaron Rodgers contract.
Are the Packers up for restructuring both deals? Hell no.
Are the Jets? Hell yes!!! Read Woody Johnson's recent "Woody Dances with Tampering," comments for the latest. The Jets are going to pull out - all the stops - and that would include AR bringing his buddy Dave along for the ride, or any number of his friends.
Leatherhead
February 20, 2023 at 02:18 pm
I don't think that trading Bakhtiari is the financial windfall you appear to think it is.
When you factor in his pro-rated signing bonus and the restructured amount, that's $15 million we'd be paying him this year.....TO NOT PLAY FOR US.
Alternatively, we could pay him another $14 million in salary and roster bonus and actually have him line up for us.
Then, after 2023, we'd only have $11 million in dead cap if we wanted to part company with him, as opposed to the $23 million dead cap hit we'd take if we traded him away..
IMO, it's better for the team if Bakhtiari stays and plays well. Also, as I have frequently commented, putting the best offensive line in the league on the field is a desirable goal, IMO, and Bakhtiari could be one of the pieces to that puzzle.
greengold
February 20, 2023 at 02:39 pm
I appreciate this, but, again, I think you're missing the point.
How much value might a lottery pick OT bring to the Packers this year? And, the subsequent years on his first contract?
You're going with the small thinking on this... while the Packers as of today have a lot of holes to fill while also being $17M in the red.
I think we all agree GB could use 2 Edge rushers, a starting LT, a starting FS and a starting caliber TE from April's draft alone. Not to mention a 5-Tech, a CB, possibly another WR.
If the Jets and Woody Johnson seriously want to pull out all the stops and make what would arguably be an unprecedented trade in NFL history for what could become (in due time via subsequent trades) a handsome decade's worth of draft picks for Aaron Rodgers and maybe one or two OL he trusts, why not help them to do it, even if it means eating some dead cap?
Believe me, if we pull all of that off the books, we'll more than be able to eat some dead cap space.
Look, I agree the possibility exists LaFleur, once out from under this AR cloud, could rectify his career in GB as HC, and become that innovator and winner we all thought we were hiring. Has the winning happened? Well, that's debatable, with a fanbase floating in a decades long sea of Division Champion hats..
If we could win meaningful playoff games, there would be something to talk about...
Give me a future with a ton of cap space and a ton of extra picks vs. Zero cap space and no extra picks. I'm talking about a chance to rebuild our Packers' future with the intent of building a dynasty again in Green Bay.
We have what the team believes to be a franchise QB, with 3 solid years of training under his belt, ready to sign his 5th year tender, a very solid collection of core players amassed...
Get the influx of younger, dominating talents on board via the draft & FA on both sides of the ball, and let's build this thing, a Championship roster with quality players.
For instance, if the Jets wanted us to trade Aaron Rodgers, David Bakhtiari, and Elgton Jenkins to them for the right price, I'd definitely do that. What exactly would that right price be?
I have my ideas about it, and the Jets wouldn't have another R1 pick until 2028. They'd lose a bunch of R2s as well.
Woody Johnson has recently come out publicly and vociferously, (intimating as best he could to avoid tampering) that he wants Aaron Rodgers/plug & play players added to his football team. You know what he's saying there, right? That he's willing to give up his future drafts for the possibility of winning it all in these next two years.
I've studied the Jets OL, and it is currently a shambles, which makes me think one or two OL thrown into the deal could help to pay some very big dividends, while putting the Packers cap well back into the black.
And, I'm sure Woody Johnson would pay handsomely to insure Aaron Rodgers in a Jets uniform would be protected with players Rodgers knows & trusts. They didn't sign Nathaniel Hackett for nothing. They want this thing to fly straight away, and they know they'll have to pay.
The Packers could clean up with this scenario, if they play their cards right.
dobber
February 20, 2023 at 08:48 pm
"Give me a future with a ton of cap space and a ton of extra picks vs. Zero cap space and no extra picks. I'm talking about a chance to rebuild our Packers' future with the intent of building a dynasty again in Green Bay."
I'd certainly like to keep young, talented players who figure into the Packers' success in the next window--like Jenkins--over lottery ticket draft picks.
"For instance, if the Jets wanted us to trade Aaron Rodgers, David Bakhtiari, and Elgton Jenkins to them for the right price, I'd definitely do that. What exactly would that right price be?"
Dealing Jenkins at this point would load an extra $13M in cap hit/dead money on the Packers' 2023 cap.
dobber
February 20, 2023 at 08:45 pm
You don't lose me based on team needs, you lose me because this is fantasy football/MLB/NBA trading. That's not intended to be a slam on you, but just an observation that these kinds of high-end/big-salary players never move together in the NFL.
I would argue that if the Packers decide to move Bakhtiari and Rodgers, they'll get more for these two individually going to separate teams than they will going to the same team because I don't see a single team giving up what it would likely take to bring them both in. If ARod says he'll only go to the Jets if Bakh goes, too, the compensation just won't add up.
It could happen, but I'd be shocked to see it.
greengold
February 21, 2023 at 07:45 am
Exactly. I understand where you’re coming from on this dobber.
That’s why I said it would be “unprecedented.”
Just because a deal like this hasn’t been done before doesn’t mean it can’t be done.
There may be enough on the plus side of the ledger to make a trade deal like this desirable for a cap strapped team like the Packers focused upon realizing at total reset, in the truest sense of the term.
Just a thought. I’d be surprised to see it too, but the possibility exists the Jets may find the addition of one or two OL AR knows & trusts worth a significantly higher number of draft picks in trade, knowing GB would have a ton of cap to eat.
As mentioned, Woody Johnson is wanting to plug and play, and would do anything in his power to make that happen now.
I find the whole thing to be interesting to consider. I don’t want to lose Bak, nor Jenkins (who was just an example thrown in to amplify the point).
How much is that hypothetical trade package worth to the Jets at this moment, and would the Packers benefit enough to make facilitating such a trade agreement worthwhile?
KnockTheSnotOutOfYou
February 21, 2023 at 09:59 am
I would be okay with everything mentioned GG though I'd be reluctant with Jenkins. Jenkins is young & a corner stone of the offensive line now and will be for several years to come. I could see the possibility of Bakhtiari being included but frankly do not see how we would get the return for him in draft value with the uncertainty of his health moving forward. Here is the thing...the Jets only have the following draft picks in 2023:
#13
#43
#74
#112
#145
#207
No matter what the Jets do they wouldn't have nearly the draft capital of the Raiders if it came down to the two teams. To me the big negative for the Jets is that #43 in round 2 is not higher, which would allow the Packers to get a top TE, or a good WR. However, focusing on the Jets they do have an unhappy WR in Corey Davis (since Garrett was drafted) who would be good trade material and would benefit the Packers WR corps. I doubt that the Jets would give up Eligah Moore if they were going all in this year, but he would really help with the trade in 2023. Davis along with the #13, #43, and conditional picks in 2024 seem about right....just for Rodgers. However, I'd probably lean towards adding the #74 this year (a second TE in the 2023 draft like Darnell Washington just might be available at that spot) even if it lessened the value of conditional picks in 2024.
T7Steve
February 20, 2023 at 06:44 am
Remembering those times reminded me of the gloating Purple People Eater Viking fans and relatives.
Please! Let's not repeat history!
If Rodgers stays, he better have a chip on his shoulder and be comeback player of the year.
egbertsouse
February 20, 2023 at 07:24 am
I remember that tool. I had only been in MN about a year or so when it happened. I was hearing how he was the final piece in the Vikings juggernaut that was going to win a couple Super Bowls while the Packers toiled in obscurity. I just smiled and told them that when things were going great and they were on the precipice of glory, Favre would do something so unbelievably stupid that it would simultaneously break their hearts and rip their guts out. They all laughed and accused me of sour grapes until the NFC championship game against the Saints.
mrtundra
February 20, 2023 at 08:31 am
A thing of beauty, egbertsouse!
nygary
February 20, 2023 at 09:02 am
I have a similar story. I have 2 friends who are Vikings fans. Every week they laughed about how Favre was there guy. I said to both of them, by the end of the year he will do something crazy to break your heart. Fast forward to the Saints playoff game. Then the throw across his body when he didn't have to and wow. Vikings down again.
LambeauPlain
February 20, 2023 at 09:47 am
Two teams have to win every week...the Pack and whoever plays Minnie. And twice a year it is the same team.
Watching Favre play in the ugly purple was galling. Cringeworthy.
But that NFCCG against the disgusting Saints' Greg Williams and his "Bounty Gate" directed Defense against Favre was a pathetic. Yes, Favre's last past for the the ugly purple was again an INT, just like for the Jets and Packers, but I felt terrible for the Iron Man QB who getting his legs hit on almost every pass play. I heard they were swollen, black & blue after the game. He didn't play well, but per usual, he kept getting up from the turf and going back to the huddle.
A tougher NFL QB? There are none.
jurp
February 20, 2023 at 11:51 am
I effing LOVED the end of that game! I was in La Crosse then and a lot of Vikings fans work there, go to college there, or have moved there for work. Their shell-shocked faces the following Monday were a thing of beauty, after they'd talked smack all season.
RCPackerFan
February 20, 2023 at 06:47 am
Aaron Rodgers!
SensualInfluence
February 20, 2023 at 07:39 am
Bye bye
RCPackerFan
February 20, 2023 at 07:41 am
me or him?
croatpackfan
February 20, 2023 at 11:19 am
Why you?
RCPackerFan
February 20, 2023 at 12:14 pm
I don't know. He or She said bye bye. So I wasn't sure who he or she was referring too.
RCPackerFan
February 20, 2023 at 06:47 am
Go Pack Go!
jurp
February 20, 2023 at 11:54 am
Hmm, it seems like you're trying to prove a point with this post and the one just above it. I'll be interested to see the ups/downs and comments on them.
For the record, I've neither upped nor downed and won't do either. Don't want to skew the results :)
RCPackerFan
February 20, 2023 at 12:12 pm
Its a fun experiment for sure.
And at this point the results are about what I figured they would be.
I never up or down vote anyone either.
fastmoving
February 20, 2023 at 02:14 pm
GO PACK GO can only be true if the greedy Diva is gone
RCPackerFan
February 21, 2023 at 06:57 am
Go Pack Go means you support the Packers and it doesn't matter who is on the field. You support the team! If you can't say Go Pack Go because you dislike a player so much, then are you truly a Packers fan?
sjack
February 20, 2023 at 07:19 am
The Pack has had no real transition plan and continues to bow to Tzar Rodgers
Cut the cord and build for the future. Let Aaron go off to ....wherever and become their headache. This organization has tied themselves to tightly to a QB in the past. DON'T KEEP DOING IT
pantz_bURp
February 20, 2023 at 07:38 am
*Should I Stay or Should I Go*
The Clash
Darling, you got to let me know
Should I stay or should I go?
If you say that you are mine
I'll be here 'til the end of time
So you got to let me know
Should I stay or should I go?
It's always tease, tease, tease
You're happy when I'm on my knees
One day is fine and next is black
So if you want me off your back
Well, come on and let me know
Should I stay or should I go?
Should I stay or should I go now?
If I go there will be trouble
And if I stay it will be double
So come on and let me know
This indecision's bugging me
If you don't want me, set me free
Exactly whom am I supposed to be?
Don't you know which clothes even fit me?
Come on and let me know
Should I cool it or should I blow?
Should I stay or should I go now?
If I go there will be trouble
And if I stay it will be double
So you gotta let me know
Should I cool it or should I blow?
Should I stay or should I go now?
If I go there will be trouble
And if I stay it will be double
So you gotta let me know
Should I stay or should I go?
Go .............. Pack Go!
PackerHotDish
February 20, 2023 at 09:18 am
Truly fitting! It's a beautiful mystery how it ends up???
SinceLombardi
February 20, 2023 at 08:12 am
I still remember where I was when I heard on the radio that Bart Starr had retired.
Beyond the numbers Bart Starr was an unparalleled winner, like so many of the Lombardi era Packers.
croatpackfan
February 20, 2023 at 08:14 am
Well, I will say that, some time now I long for old good days of TT regime. Mark "we are not idiots" Murphy had no balls to mess with TT. I have no doubt that Mr Ted Tompson, GM would gave pedal (to the metal!) to Packers Diva after just proclamation that he will never play for Packers. TT was the guy who listen wishes of his players and, if possible, fulfill them immediately. He would be on the phone calling teams by draft orders and taking offers, pick the best one and move on.
That kind of confifence in yourself comes with knowledge and expirience Mark "we are not idiots" Murphy had and will never posess. So he wanted to play TT game through Brian Gutekunst and Russ Ball, but he never showed he understands importance of guts and balls TT had. After all Packers won SB under TT regime.
People call me ACR hater, but I'm not. I just understand that when you have player on the most important position on the team, with personality he was and is showing, you can not allow him to behave outside of his contract. ACR asked for respect, and most of us believes that he had that respect from Packers through good and bad times but he wanted more. He wanted to be include in the issues that he has no knowledge and experience, we saw how that finished. He refuses to be employee, handsomly paid for his services, but he wanted to be in managers structure. He feels he should be the one who will run the organization, demanding players on the team, final influence in play calling, and he wanted to be paid even more than handsomly.
People do not understand that he had to just fulfill contract the best he can. If he can not, than he will be asked the questions and traded or released for not matching the contractual demands. I believe US was made by that simple assumption.
I understand Packers fans (as every fan, including me) make emotional bounds to excellent players (what ACR was) because they brings a lot of joy to them. They are less worying about business part of the relation. But that is the GMs job. Many employees hate managements and CEOs, or owners because they do not understand all reasons behing the decisions, not because they are stupid, but because they do not have all informations or they do not care about them.
I said and I'll repeat once more, ACR deserves place in Packers HOF and retirement of his number. But nothing else. For everithing he brought and gave this organization he was paid, by his own words "generation wealth". And that is the end of story. It is not what you did for us (for that you'll get your recognition by introducing you in Packets HOF and retirement of the number you wore during your career), it is about what can you do for us now and in the future.
HarryHodag
February 20, 2023 at 08:15 am
Rodgers' ego prevents him from admitting what is becoming obvious: he is about 80 percent of what he used to be and each year it will be less. While pal Tom Brady played on, Brady is a physical freak but it caught up with him, too.
The money keeps a player in one location longer than he should. But it's time for that player to move on and the managers need to do it this year. They're already a year late.
cben67
February 20, 2023 at 08:23 am
Bart Starr was the NFL passer rating leader 5 times in the 1960's.
mrtundra
February 20, 2023 at 08:34 am
I did not know they had passer ratings back then. Kind of like sack stats, IMO.
dobber
February 20, 2023 at 09:21 am
They can calculate it after the fact based on passing stats.
Swisch
February 20, 2023 at 10:48 am
My understanding is that two of those years in which Starr led the NFL in passer rating were after Lombardi, 1968 and 1969.
However, that doesn't mean that Ken Lass doesn't have good points about Starr staying too long in the NFL.
I don't know, but Lass makes a good case that he at least should have retired after 1969.
It may have been even better for Starr and his health, as well as for the Packers, if our legendary quarterback had moved on after the 1967 season (with the MVP award for the first two Super Bowls).
It is sad that we as humans tend to stay a little too long, when it's usually better to leave a little early.
***
In any case, Lass and I agree about the Starr being the greatest quarterback of the Packers of all time. (Sad to say, I actually never got to see him play, at least that I remember, being born in 1962; yet, I still had a poster of him in my room in the 1970s.)
I would go so far as to say Starr is the greatest quarterback ever in the history of the NFL.
In the playoff era of the NFL, beginning 1932, no other quarterback has led his team to 5 championships in 7 seasons (1961-67), nor three championships in a row (1965-1967).
It seems to me that although Starr did not have a strong arm, he still made himself into an excellent passer through diligent effort, aided by his decision-making (with the help of extensive film study) and precision.
Starr won the 1966 MVP for the regular season, and in the championship game that year in Dallas threw for four touchdowns and more than 300 yards.
However, there may be a hundred thing that go into being a great quarterback other than long passes in tight windows.
It seems Starr honed the craft of quarterback with dedication until he became masterful in all of its various details and dimensions.
***
If a quarterback throws a 10-yard pass to an open wide receiver to win a championship for the Packers, rather than attempting a 40-yard pass that goes incomplete, then which would we prefer?
If a QB wins the big games by outsmarting a team as much as by dazzling spirals, what
does it matter?
If a QB wins by cooperation with his coaches, and by bringing the best out of his teammates -- even to the lessening of his own accolades -- shouldn't that be appreciated and applauded and celebrated down through the decades?
Starr was a master craftsman at QB, and a leader of men, and the greatest quarterback of NFL history.
***
We can learn from his possible mistake of staying too long, but we can learn so much more by what he brought to the Green Bay Packers in an era in which they became the most glorious team of all the ages.
The lessons are always relevant to the Packers winning another Super Bowl.
Talent is essential, and the unassuming Starr had it in plenitude; but he also showed the necessity of character, and how it can take us to the greatest of heights of shared triumph.
Swisch
February 20, 2023 at 11:01 am
I love the history of the Packers in general, but especially during the Lombari Era.
Yes, Lombardi made Starr -- but, it seems to me, that the solid and steely Starr helped the mercurial Lombardi to achieve much more than he would have without Starr.
Savor the video and the audio:
Swisch
February 20, 2023 at 11:06 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BKcu8MeWPo
jurp
February 20, 2023 at 12:10 pm
I agree with your analysis of Starr as the greatest Packers quarterback ever, but had to take a little exception when you wrote "In the playoff era of the NFL, beginning 1932, no other quarterback has led his team to 5 championships in 7 seasons (1961-67), nor three championships in a row (1965-1967)."
While technically true, this disregards Otto Graham's five-in-a-row with the the Cleveland Browns (1946-1950), because four of those occurred in the old AAFC. Now, you could argue that the AAFC was a minor league, but the SF 49ers and Baltimore Colts were good enough to enter the NFL with the Browns, and Buffalo's team was also good enough to join but didn't. The LA Dons were a decent team as well. Buffalo had great fans, which is one reason they were charter members of the AFL.
The Browns finished their first two seasons in the NFL with a total of three losses. They also had the first undefeated season by a professional team (1948) and won 29 in a row from 1947-1949. They nearly were undefeated again in 1953.
Much of this success is due to Graham, although like Starr he had a great supporting cast.
In a small trivia note, it's widely believed that the Cleveland Rams moved to LA because they couldn't outdraw the Cleveland Browns. What if Paul Brown had put his team in Milwaukee? We'd have teams in each Conference :)
Swisch
February 20, 2023 at 02:59 pm
Good stuff, jurp, Otto Graham was a great one.
Like Starr, he tends to be unjustly overlooked in the discussion for greatest quarterback of all time.
lou
February 20, 2023 at 08:30 am
Starr was 9-1 in the Playoff's (8 yards away from being 10-0) in an era where there were less teams so the overall talent levels were higher than today and the the playoff system was not in place that allowed today's QB's to pick up easy playoff wins over Wild Card teams, some even without a winning record. He gets my vote as the best ever.
LLCHESTY
February 20, 2023 at 08:36 am
It was all on Bart too, no other HOFers on that team to help him out.
Swisch
February 20, 2023 at 11:35 am
The Colts of Johnny Unitas had some star players, too, it seems, as well as the Giants, Browns, Bears, Lions, Rams, and Cowboys.
A good quarterback brings out the best in his teammates on offense and defense, uplifting the tone of competitiveness and camaraderie for the good of the individuals and the team.
Lombardi was the key to elevating players to greatness, but the understated Starr as quarterback was quietly at his side leading the Packers in ways inaccessible to a head coach.
To paraphrase and adapt a popular saying, it's amazing what a group can achieve when its members -- especially its leaders -- aren't overly concerned about who gets the credit.
Starr didn't have the sizzle of other quarterbacks, but he was the choicest cut of steak in NFL history. The proof is not mainly in the style, but in the substance.
Starr was so great in humility that even today good Packers fans underestimate the magnitude of his immense contribution to an era of excellence and championships.
LLCHESTY
February 20, 2023 at 12:10 pm
It's shocking you'd say that. Don't forget Lombardi thought about trading him more than once because he thought they could improve at QB.
Since'61
February 20, 2023 at 02:57 pm
Lombardi did try to trade Starr twice. Once to Dallas for Meredith but Landry turned him down and once to the Eagles for Sonny Jurgensen. However the Eagles had just traded Jorgensen to the Redskins for Norm Sneed shortly before Lombardi contacted the Eagles.
After Lombardi left Green Bay for the Redskins in 1969 he commented that if he had Jorgensen in Green Bay the Packers would have never lost a game. Thanks, Since '61
Swisch
February 20, 2023 at 03:42 pm
It's understandable if Lombardi wavered about Starr in the first years;. but he likely appreciated him more and more and more over time as the championships accumulated to an astounding five in seven years.
Ironically, even if Lombardi would've preferred Meredith early on, later Starr would have two of his greatest games against the Meredith-led Cowboys in the epic championships of 1966 and 1967.
To watch videos of Starr online is to realize that he really could sling the ball around the field quite impressively -- in one presentation he's described as "deceptively daring, surprisingly strong-armed" -- while also carrying out all of the other duties of a quarterback as the greatest craftsman of all time.
Ferrari-Driver
February 20, 2023 at 08:41 am
Well Ken, like you I got to talk to Bart Starr for about 10-15 minutes with my dad at a meeting I attended with my dad as a tag along. That was one of the greatest moments of my life to meet my childhood hero in person and have him talk and listen to a snot nosed kid for that length of time and treat him like he was someone important. Of course, Bart made himself even more of a hero in my eyes and he has remained so throughout my lifetime.
LeotisHarris
February 20, 2023 at 08:58 am
Nice article, Ken. Made me recall a game near the end of Starr's career where he had a receiver open down the left sideline and just didn't have the arm strength to get the ball over the Vikings Bobby Bryant, INT. I can still see Bart walking off the field, head down, right arm hanging by his side.
You used the term "brutalized" and that is so spot on. Rodgers hasn't taken any hits like Starr, Unitas and Montana did. Remember Jim Burt's hit on Montana? Brady played as long as he did because the rules protected him from those brutal hits as well. Still, Rodgers cumulative injuries don't bode well for his future, even if he had Brady-like devotion to conditioning.
Where and how Aaron channels his competitive drive going forward remains to be seen. As I've said before, it would be a relief to me if he was lovingly set free. He'll always be one of the Packers all-time greats, but it's time to go.
Coldworld
February 20, 2023 at 09:11 am
This story is the almost universal story of aging superstars. There are a tiny number of exceptions, but in general, letting go is incredibly hard. That’s one reason why front office personnel are paid. This is a decision that should never be left to emotion or the athlete.
As to decline or not, the thing about that is it only becomes obvious in retrospect. All those Ken mentioned were showing signs, few were so obvious that it was a foregone conclusion at the time, which is why another team wanted them. It’s why we took Hadl.
At near 40, Rodgers is older than most of those were. He’s therefore well and truly in the time window where the past, even relatively recent, isn’t a great guide to what he can be this year. The “but he’s an MVP” brigade are chasing ghosts. There has been an MVP every year for decades and most won’t suit up this year for good reason.
In my view, Brady wasn’t all that good with Tampa, but his game awareness and tactical ability, which is unparalleled, was enough with a super stacked roster and a little luck too. He too went a year too far, maybe two, and he’s a true exception anyway.
In my personal opinion, judging Rodgers is complicated by a roster that was intended to be in place for a transition aborted and by a coach that leaves a great deal to be desired, generally, but who also produced one of the worst offensive designs last year that I can recall. Some blame Rodgers for a lot of that. It’s really immaterial who bears the real blame though: it was just ineffective and makes it harder to judge where Rodgers is.
We are stuck with that coach this year. What I see is that it’s highly unlikely that even a better season from Rodgers gets us anywhere with this roster and coaching staff and just being here is also bleeding out future ability to restock and retain, directly and through keeping elder expensive pieces together.
Remember Favre was looking a lot better than the 2008 Rodgers, till he hurt his bicep 10 games in. But such injuries are part of decline. It’s not merely loss of ability but durability. Rodgers may have a season or two, but he’s not carrying a roster. Our roster will largely stay in stasis if young players start to improve because we can’t add talent to draft and cheap rehab FAs and we are going to be letting parts go or age diminishes them too.
That is not going to work for us or Rodgers. Last year it should have been mutually clear. I don’t blame Rodgers for not facing that. I do blame Murphy. This is past time. I suspect the best decision will be to hang up his cleats, but if not, go where a roster gives him a chance to let others share the load. Brady was very smart to do so. At this point, the past is a useless guide. Those rosters are no longer, Rodgers is 2 years older—an age for a QB near 40 and our cap is spent for at least 2 years if he stays.
This should not be up to Rodgers. It never should be. Ken is right that Starr (and almost every other great) should remind us of that and especially with less around him. That Murphy left it so expressly up to him is, frankly, unbelievable. That it’s still the case a year on is unforgivable.
dobber
February 20, 2023 at 09:33 am
"This is a decision that should never be left to emotion or the athlete."
...or to the sentiment of fans.
"Last year it should have been mutually clear. I don’t blame Rodgers for not facing that....This should not be up to Rodgers. It never should be. "
I still have a hard time understanding why this marriage continued another year AFTER the standoff the previous offseason and his trolling of management and peers except maybe out of fear of the unknown.
There are now reports out there (including by well-informed but sour-grapes Bob McGinn) that indicate the Packers know they made a mistake last off-season, and that 12 reported to camp in (for him) relatively poor physical condition and with a disinvested attitude. We may never know if that's true--bloggers are always trying to be seen, after all. We point to the thumb and the poor skill position cast, but there was no chip in 2022 on 12s shoulder having won a big contract in the off-season and being given greater say in personnel.
https://www.profootballrumors.com/2023/02/latest-on-packers-qb-aaron-rod...
Coldworld
February 20, 2023 at 10:02 am
A fair snapshot of McGinn, but if we were to take that as accurate then their handling of Rodgers through camp and the season is even harder to understand. It would suggest that, despite realizing that early in preseason, they let him dictate aspects of camp, of in game usage, whether he should play hurt and then still left him to decide whether to return? That only adds up if the leadership are truly non confrontational and decision averse to a point beyond belief, and thus is surely implausible? If not, heads should be rolling.
greengold
February 20, 2023 at 11:00 am
LOL. Dennis Green comes to mind... "They are who we thought they were!"
Let's not let them off the hook. Especially if they screw this up anymore than they already have.
jurp
February 20, 2023 at 03:38 pm
"That only adds up if the leadership are truly non confrontational and decision averse to a point beyond belief,"
Looks like you're describing MLF, so not very implausible, IMO. OTOH, Scooter may have done what he did because he was ordered to play nice with Aaron and not upset him. If so, we know "the not an idiot" (hah!) who gave THAT order!
Leatherhead
February 20, 2023 at 11:38 am
Coldworld, you've played this song for quite a while now, but I'm not persuaded.
"" That Murphy left it so expressly up to him is, frankly, unbelievable. That it’s still the case a year on is unforgivable.""
If you have an opportunity to have the reigning MVP on the team, I don't think it's "incompetence", "malfeasance", "ineptitude", or "unforgivable" for the people at the top to try to make that happen. You might not agree with it, but it hardly merits that type of condemnation.
Rodgers could have made different choices. He could have chosen to work out and be in the best possible shape, he could have chosen to spend extra time with his receivers. He didn't make those choices. The team could have traded him a year ago, as you keep saying, but it certainly appears that there wasn't a consensus at the top that we'd be better off with Love last year than Rodgers. Now, apparently, there is, and it's being resolved.
When I was a little boy, it was presented to me that things happen in their own time, not mine. Three years ago, we drafted Love, and we didn't draft him to sit on the bench for four years and leave. Two years ago, Rodgers had his little draft day kerfuffle, and many thought it was over then. But the adults in the room patched things up and we got an MVP season in return for that. One year ago, we could have traded him. Now, it's happening (or he'll retire).
He's leaving Coldworld. And if LaFleur is as bad as you say, then Love won't be able to carry him and he'll be gone too. Murphy will eventually retire. All these things will be resolved in their own time.
Of course, if the LaFleur/Love Packers are good next year, you're going to have to explain how a bunch of unforgivable incompetents accomplished that. I think you're entire premise is off, frankly.
Coldworld
February 20, 2023 at 12:20 pm
If Love is good, I have nothing to explain as I have always said we need to see him. I think it’s possible—I see some encouraging signs, but until we see him with a game plan snd starters around him and against him for a number of games, it’s just guesswork. No player is truly proven in practice in any sport. LaFleur blew a chance to give us that this year.
If LaFleur succeeds with Love that would just lend support to those who blame Rodgers for all that is wrong. I doubt that since his control would have to extend off field and in to coaching choices, tactics and planning on D as well as O, among other things. I’ve never bought in to the Rodgers is the only problem theory. He may be one element of the issues, but if so it’s only one and the known characteristics of others suggest that’s more on the coach if it is true.
As to Rodgers being gone, we will see. I see nothing of substance that can support a decision being made by anyone at this point. So your belief is, from my perspective, just guesswork. Last year you repeatedly assured us that he would be in Denver, so I hesitate to trust your prescience as it concerns his decision, on the outcome, or as to the competence of LaFleur and Murphy. I see plenty of real evidence to cast doubt on the latter and have for some time.
Indeed, this season went pretty much as I was predicting last year even before the departure of Adams was confirmed, for many of the reasons, including how LaFleur approached the inevitable rookies, preseason and other factors as well as Rodgers.
Your desire to find positives is laudable in theory, but not if just used to avoid the reality that there was more wrong with this leadership than is written in that contract extension and more reasons why we couldn’t convert in ‘20 and 21 than just Rodgers. Many of those reasons are and have been in plain sight.
I hope very much that you are right this year and that Both we and Rodgers move on, but even if we do, I think the chances are it’s not going to be the result of string and decisive leadership by those in Lambeau. That should worry you, because that’s what they are here for. There will be more hard decisions to be made to bring this ship into a port worth attaining.
T7Steve
February 20, 2023 at 12:40 pm
It sort of makes it a no win for Love. If he's 7-10 he's a wash and they should have kept Rodgers (who might have been 7-10 too). If Love takes us to the playoffs, it's the coach and what could we have done with Rodgers?
Coldworld
February 20, 2023 at 12:57 pm
Possibly, but if Love shows enough to get us to the playoffs in year one then I suspect the landscape of the debate snd perception has changed. The difficulty Love may face is having to beat his own coaching and thus the argument could be is he good and LaFleur the problem or does LaFleur’s incompetence kill his career. To get back on the right track, we need more than just Love to prove adequate and to be clear where faults lie is an essential prerequisite of that.
T7Steve
February 20, 2023 at 01:15 pm
And MLF's incompetence might not be on the offensive side of the ball. It might be on his coaching of the rest of the team that hurts the most. His inability to want to or be able to make in-game or even in-season adjustments to style, players and coaches has nothing to do with who's the QB.
Leatherhead
February 20, 2023 at 01:29 pm
Nothing to explain except how that bunch of incompetent dolts at 1265 have transitioned to Love while squeezing two MVP seasons and some nice draft compensation out of Rodgers until Love was ready, which he apparently is, if you believe Gutekunst, or McGinn, or the guys on the field with him.
What you call "my guesswork" is what I'd call "deductive reasoning". I'd be willing to bet an all-expense paid 3 day weekend in Vegas with Leotis Harris that Rodgers is done and Love is our QB this season. That's the gist of what McGinn leaked.
And I don't have a "desire" to find positives, but I can't help seeing what's right in front of my eyes. This Murphy/Gutekunst/LaFleur group....who you just unceasingly lambast.....have gone 47-19, won the division 3 times, and have set us up for a great season with a new QB and what could be a fantastic draft with the extra picks we'll get.
You see that as failure and ineptitude. I don't. "Stirring and decisive leadership"???/ They drafted Love. They got two MVP seasons out of Rodgers. They've resigned/extended multiple core players like Clark, Alexander, Douglas, Campbell, Bakhtiari, Jenkins, Jones. They've drafted future stars. What the hell do you want?
I know. You want us to go back in time and trade Rodgers last year, like you wanted. I don't think that's going to happen.
Coldworld
February 20, 2023 at 03:22 pm
I didn’t mention the draft. I simply said that while I believe Rodgers and this team makes no sense, the problems are broader than Rodgers and we are going to have to address them, as they are staying in town even if Rodgers does leave.
Moreover, I noted that this decision ought to be being proactively made and that there is a good chance it isn’t as things look at present. I pointed out that that too would be symptomatic of the non-Rodgers problems. Rodgers of 2 years ago won an MVP. We failed in our clearly stated objective of winning it all. If that’s the hook that you hang your hat on, it’s no wonder it’s got footprints all over it.
Leatherhead
February 20, 2023 at 06:02 pm
""Moreover, I noted that this decision ought to be being proactively made and that there is a good chance it isn’t as things look at present"
Huh??? Have you been attending the Kamala Harris school of Word Saladology?
The decision, as always, was with the brass at 1265. They made the decision when it was the appropriate time, not when Love wasn't ready and Rodgers was the MVP. And they've made it. And they've sent a clear as day signal what it is.
You're going to have to enlighten me. Exactly, can you give me one example of a broad, non-Rodgers problem that merits the level of condemnation you have thrown at the front office and LaFleur?
Since'61
February 20, 2023 at 06:50 pm
LH Quite frankly CHTV doesn't have the space and I don't have the time to write all of the 1265 screw ups and you wouldn't have the time to read them.
but in answer to your question for one example, I will accommodate you. 1265 has made a complete cluster fxxk out of the salary cap. And yes that is a non-Rodgers problem. We have at least 4 players who are the highest paid players at their respective positions. Rodger is one of those players but he's not the only one.
Just the fact that they gave Rodgers his current contract is a massive fxxkup which they have compounded by ceding control of the organization to him at least until he makes his decision about his future. What if Rodgers doesn't make his decision until after the FA period or after the draft? What if he needs more time? What if he determines that he needs to go into space with Jeff Bezos to find the answer and next launch is the week before TC begins? What if needs to spend 3 months with the Dali Lama? This the guy 1265 has left the future of the organization up to!!! Sorry massive fail IMO.
Just so you know there's more than one Rodgers problem, how about the coaching staff? Starting with the HC, Matt LaChooch. Big News Flash!!! Hiring the second most important position in your organization after one 2 hour interview is a really big problem. Unless of course flapping his arms is a job requirement. IN that case Murphy hit it big time. Unfortunately, there are a few more requirements for an HC. One of which is having a clue about defense and STs. Oh wait, there are a few more of those nagging problems that you are looking for.
As I posted I can really go on with the list of problems from a management perspective alone. On the field I'll just go with no sense of urgency, lack of leadership, poor to no communications, constant confusion on defense, WRs running around aimlessly, dropped passes, missed blocks, poor tackling and blown coverages. If you need a few more dozen non-Rodgers problems let me know because I'll be happy to share them but I really don't want to do it to the rest of our bloggers. It's won't be fair to them.
Thanks, Since '61
Leatherhead
February 20, 2023 at 08:00 pm
What if Rodgers doesn't make his decision until after the FA period or after the draft? What if he needs more time? What if .....
This again is the crux of things. You see Rodgers as driving this, and I see that the team has made the decision and Rodgers is only choosing to retire or take the trade.
I'm going to respectfully disagree on your assessment of the salary cap. I'm going to agree with Russ Ball that an expanding cap is going to make it possible for us to continue to put a good product on the field. Rodgers will be a 16/24 hit. That's it.
MOST of the team is on rookie deal. Look at the 21 guys we'll dress out for offense next year: Bakhtiari and Jenkins are second deal men. If we bring back Nijman, that'll be 3. And Jones would make four. But the other 17 are going to be rookie deal guys.
On defense, minus Amos, we're paying a lot for one of the league's best corners. We're also paying Douglas and Campbell and Clark and Smith and Gary, at some point. Everybody else is a rookie deal guy. So that's like 6 out of 21. Combined, it's about 10 guys getting paid.
So out entire "OUT OF CONTROL SALARY CAP is going to be about 10 guys, maybe 12. That's about normal around the league.
You've got a bad attitude about the Front Office and the team. I'm sorry you feel that way about them, because I surely don't see it that way.
dobber
February 20, 2023 at 09:08 pm
"We have at least 4 players who are the highest paid players at their respective positions."
I was curious how contract structures were working out, so looking at Sportrac among those who are on non-rookie deals I found that--positionally-- in 2023...
Aaron Rodgers is 11th at QB
AJones just restructured to 10th at RB
Bakhtiari is 2nd at OT (he won't make this money)
Jenkins is 22nd at OG
P. Smith is 32nd among "edge" players/16th as OLB
Clark is 3rd at DT (he'll almost certainly be renegotiated)
Cambpell is 13th at ILB
Jaire is 4th at CB (another restructure candidate)
Douglas is 24th at CB
Savage lists at 4th at SS (5th year option)
LeotisHarris
February 20, 2023 at 07:59 pm
It's a privilege to be mentioned in this thread (seriously, guys, appreciate the respectful disagreements), but, man, I hate everything about Las Vegas. Spent two nights there on the way to and from running the St George Marathon 150 years ago, and couldn't wait to leave.
Carry on.
Leatherhead
February 20, 2023 at 08:02 pm
You're only going to be there to be a chick magnet, and to pick me up if I fall over.
LeotisHarris
February 20, 2023 at 08:48 pm
Okay, I still have time to ramp up my squats and deadlifts.
Spock
February 21, 2023 at 08:26 am
Leotis, always enjoy your posts. Couldn't agree more about Lost Wages, er, Las Vegas. My wife and I spent 4 days in LV when I'd gotten my culinary degree so I could check out the culinary opportunities for me and so we could determine if we'd like to live there. I was ready to leave after about half a day. I don't gamble (spent exactly zero cents on that while there) and the cheap, false fronts on the hotels seemed to be an expression of the whole town. Thankfully, we did get to see a nice Cirque du Soleil Show one night, so it wasn't a totally wasted trip. I NEVER want to see that town again.
greengold
February 20, 2023 at 01:13 pm
In all fairness, I think Mark Murphy has shown himself to be meddlesome when one considers STs having been a problem throughout LaFleur's tenure and for more than a decade previous, knowing Murphy refused to pay LaFleur's 1st choice for the position on his staff, Darren Rizi, the best ST Coach in the business, upon LaFleur's hire.
Give me a moment here: Darren Rizi is ranked #3 All-Time in NFL History for Special Teams Coaching.
That's meddlesome AF, especially when you have ONE JOB, and that is to give your team the money it needs to do the work at hand, winning Lombardi Trophies.
How many STs gaffes killed our chances in 2021? Now, do 2020!!! How about 2019???
This whole AR fiasco could have been averted with stronger leadership from up top. It not only wasn't handled, but was made worse by prolonging the injury to team leadership.
Have you read any of the recent NY media postings on the subject? They've been doing their research. Currently, the Packers stance is they are disgusted with Aaron Rodgers... per Bob McGinn's own perspective, shaped by his conversations with team sources. You can't make this shit up.
Don't much care about people's personal takes on McGinn, but the man has some serious sources within 1265.
I don't think this is worth beating around for yet another year, but, after all this BS, a fan is entitled to her or his opinions. There's been enough garbage thrown around from Green Bay's version of Alfred E. Newman to lay a solid foundation for his ineptitude and problematic meddlesomeness, for many, many years to lend credence to such arguments. Ones that are worthy, in my eyes.
A suitcase filled with $20,000,000 in Hattiesburg, Mississippi ring any bells? That was in 2000freaking8!!!
Leatherhead
February 20, 2023 at 01:57 pm
"""How many STs gaffes killed our chances in 2021? Now, do 2020!!! How about 2019??? """
In 2019, we went 14-4 and did not lose a single game due to special teams miscues.
In 2020, we went 14-4 and did not lose a single game due to special teams ineptitude.
In 2021, we were 13-5, and lost a playoff game where a blocked punt was returned for a TD, and combined with a HISTORICALLY bad offensive output, was responsible. Give them credit for 0.5 in three years.
Now, answer this. How many games were won with last second FGs during that time?
XXXXXXXXXXXXXYour take on McGinn's sources and story are on target, IMO. It's not just guesswork at this point. The team has sent a pretty strong signal that they are fed up with Rodgers and want him gone and the people who are still unclear on that are going to have to clean their glasses and look again.
"""" ineptitude and problematic meddlesomeness, """
Let's see.......we go 48-19 over 4 years, while transitioning away from Rodgers,and we're about to get some good compensation when we unload him. Meanwhile, Love has been getting ready.
That doesn't sound like ineptitude to me.
greengold
February 20, 2023 at 02:24 pm
It's all shits & giggles for you right now, but, what if we didn't have the Jets in a frenzy for a 4-Time MVP at QB?
I'm sorry, but I'm not going to rehash the last 3 seasons again, ad nauseam. Packers STs ranked 20th or worse for 70% of the last decade, including:
32nd in 2021
29th in 2020
26th in 2019
32nd in 2018
29th in 2016
32nd in 2014
You're missing the point. The discussion was leadership, and the Packers' lack thereof.
Leatherhead
February 20, 2023 at 02:53 pm
Poor special teams rankings are an indicator of lacking leadership?
Gutekunst and LaFleur weren't even in here in 2014, 2016, and 2018....why does that matter if the discussion is our lack of leadership?
Turnovers on special teams count. Missed FGs, which are essentially a turnover, count. But special teams rankings don't mean much, IMO.
When you can show me a correlation between special teams rankings and winning games, I'll listen. But I'll warn you, I've looked, hard, and many times, and I'm just not seeing it.
https://www.lineups.com/nfl-team-rankings/special-teams
Do you see all those guys at the top....Ravens, Steelers, Seahawks, Raiduhs, Falcons, Patriots, Colts......how many playoff appearances for that group? How many wins? The Bengals, Chiefs, and Eagles.....all towards the bottom!!!
Special teams hurt us badly in ending our 2014 season. It played a role in the 2021 loss. I'm not certain that you're making a very convincing case that special teams has had as much to do with our losses as our offense did over the last 4 years, and I'm pretty sure you're not taking the time to figure up how many times the winning margin was a Mason Crosby FG at the end, and I don't see how this illustrates a lack of leadership.
greengold
February 20, 2023 at 03:29 pm
How do you not see LaFleur wanted Darren Rizi as his ST Coach? Murphy killed that. Packers STs have been ranked no higher than 22nd since, which finally occurred last season under Bisaccia.
MURPHY TURNED RIZI AWAY.
The lack of leadership I've been speaking on, and yes, it dates back way into the McCarthy era, directly concerns Mark Murphy as team President.
What does that say to your new Head Coach? "No, you can't have him. Costs too much..???" C'mon!!!
You don't think as Team President you would want to give your new HC whatever he might need to be successful? That's the bigger discussion, LH. How could you not want to give him the best ST Coach in the business???!!! Ludicrous.
Not to mention your arguments here are so banal. Solid ST play changes field position and gives more and better opportunities for your team's overall success. It's not all missed FGs, blah blah blah...
Coldworld
February 20, 2023 at 06:04 pm
LaFleur did want Rizzi. It might have been his best decision to date. The full story as I recall it was that Ball objected to his financial demands. Murphy put the decision on hold while he decided between the two. Murphy took about 3 days to decide to back LaFleur. By then Rizzi had decided that they weren’t committed and was somewhat affronted, and took an alternative offer he was originally going to decline.
Leatherhead
February 20, 2023 at 07:35 pm
I see it Greengold, I just don't think it makes any difference.
" Solid ST play changes field position and gives more and better opportunities for your team's overall success.".
I'm not disputing that, but we probably don't agree on "solid". To me, solid would be no turnovers, no missed FGs, no long returns. I'm not sure what it is to you.. I think we need to look at the data on returns.
Four best teams at kickoff returns last year, yards/return: Colts, Bears, Lions, Packers. Yay. Eagles were 18th, KC was 29th.
Four best teams at punt returns last year: Falcons, Lions, Chargers, Jets. KC was 26th. Eagles were 14th.
As long as you don't turn it over, your return doesn't matter much. On average, the best punt returning team is getting about 4 more yards than an average team, and that's probably the result of one long one. Your best kick returning team is getting about 5 more, on average.
And, there's no observable correlation between returning kicks and punts well and winning football games. None. I've looked for years. It isn't there. It's an illusion.
I am sorry you feel that's banal. I would disagree with t hat.
Since'61
February 20, 2023 at 06:32 pm
LH - Just the fact that by your own admission the Packers have been working on this alleged plan for 4 years tells me all I need to know about the ineptitude of the Packers FO. Four years to reach the point of getting a plan off the ground is not good planning in a sport that is based on winning in the current season rather than waiting for 4 years to claim that the guy drafted 4 years ago to implement the plan is ready. Not only that but there is no guarantee that the guy (Love) is ready of that the roster is ready is execute.
Those are the secondary issues. The primary issues are the salary cap hell this alleged brilliant management team has created for the Packers and the fact that the coaching staff has demonstrated that they don't know how to prepare the team to play, that they can't make adjustments during the games and that they are willing to accept mediocrity by retaining coaches like Drayton and Barry. Evidence, the team has no sense of urgency, repeatedly takes stupid penalties, and yes several years of disastrous ST play.
You can claim that STs haven't cost the Packers many games but that is an inaccurate and deliberate manipulation of the facts. How many times did STs allow big returns that gave our opponent's offense a short field and enabled an easy score? How many times have we failed to return a KO to our own 20 yard line and put our offense in short field position? How many times have the STs failed to return a punt and again leave the offense with poor starting field position? But here's is the real question that you never bring up: How many games have our ST's actually helped the Packers to win? The answer since 2018 is exactly 2!!
2 games in the last 5 seasons, the Gute era.
It's interesting that you never bring up these facts in your comments about this brilliant 4 year plan. Four years and couting by the way. You seem to believe that trading Rodgers will solve everything. That our cap problems will go away without Rodgers, that our players will become HOFers and that our coaches will return us to the Lombardi era. I hope I'm wrong but I don't expect that to happen especially with this coaching staff.
Back to Rodgers. There are 3 possible scenarios for Rodgers as of today despite the brilliant 4 year and counting plan. First Aaron might be traded but that is undermined by the 2 other possibilities. Rodgers could retire. If that happens, poof!!! Up in smoke go this alleged boat load of draft picks for Rodgers. What is the back up plan from our brilliant management team in that case? I'm confident they don't know. Third scenario Rodgers comes away from his visit with the Oracle of Delphi and proclaims, "I have seen the darkness and I'm coming back to play for the Packers and win the SB! I went through the stigmata and I know it's true!" Again, all those draft picks go poof again. How does Rodgers return to the Packers impact the great FO plan? I'm confident that the FO doesn't have a clue.
Two out of three possibilities leave the Packers with nothing gained from how they have allowed this "plan" to play out. You may be correct that it is a plan but it is a plan that the Packers have no control over as of today. They have admitted that they have ceded control of their plan to Rodgers and are waiting for his decision. What if Rodgers doesn't decide until after the FA or after the draft? At what point does the Packers FO move this along? Neither you or I know the answer. Rodgers could come out of the darkness and determine that he needs to spend 3 months with the Dali Lama? Then what happens?
How do I know that the FO doesn't have a clue? Because a management team that has a clue never lets any of this get this far. They don't blow up their salary cap. They don't leave the future of their franchise up to a 39 year old adult who needs to spend 4 days in the dark to figure it out and come back and tell them what to do. Which is case you haven't realized it yet is exactly what is happening.
LH I'm not saying you're wrong about this I'm just asking questions that I would ask the alleged geniuses at 1265. But I do know that as a manager and co-owner of my company I would never allow anyone in the organization to take the decision making our of my hands or my business partner's hands. Discuss options with others, yes. Get input and feedback daily from employees and customers absolutely. But final decision making on the future of the organization, NO WAY! That's a bridge too far, it's management failure and in fact it could and should be considered negligence. But in Green Bay it's OK because we know (somehow) that we're going to trade Rodgers and get all these great draft picks who will be NFL HOFers and guarantee the Packers years and years of consecutive SBs'. Based on the decision of a guy in the modern version of a cave for four days. Yeah, OK let's go with that. After all , We have a big slide and "We're not idiots." Thanks, Since '61
Leatherhead
February 20, 2023 at 07:21 pm
You should re-read what you've said.
4 years of ineptitude=2 Championship games, 3 playoff appearances, a 47-19 record, and a transition from an HOFer to his successor while squeezing two more MVPs out of him. That's ineptitude?
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If Rodgers retires, we'll be on the hook for $40 million, which can be broken up into two years on a 16/24 breakdown.
""How do I know that the FO doesn't have a clue? Because a management team that has a clue never lets any of this get this far. They don't blow up their salary cap. They don't leave the future of their franchise up to a 39 year old adult who needs to spend 4 days in the dark to figure it out and come back and tell them what to do. Which is case you haven't realized it yet is exactly what is happening. "
1. You should recognize the possibility that they didn't blow up the salary cap, they made strategic calculations based on an expanding cap. So far, it's worked.
2. They haven't left the future of the franchise to Rodgers. Over 3 years ago, they were already working towards this day. They drafted his replacement, and prepared him. And now, if the Packers decide to go with Love (and they have) Rodgers can retire or accept a trade. Either way, it's $40 million over two years. I absolutely, positively, do not understand why a rational person would conclude that Rodgers is determining the future of the franchise. He's finished, and the only thing he's determining is whether to accept a trade or retire.
3. Your three scenarios.....Come on, man. The Packers have signaled he's done here, so you can forget that. It's about as likely as an alien abduction. He'll retire or take a trade. We'd prefer the trade, and if he'd like to keep playing, we'll make that happen. It's not "two out of three bad". It's Rodgers is gone and costing us $40 million either way. The only variable whether he retires or not. That's it. If he doesn't, we'll get draft picks.
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4. Your claim that the Packers special teams have only helped in 2 out of 49 wins......normally, I'd say that's laughable but I have to much respect to say that, so I'll just say that you should re-examine that. I recall walkoff FGs twice in one season against Detroit, a walkoff win in SF, and a win in overtime at Cincinnati, and that's off the top of my head. Special teams has helped us win a lot more games than it's helped us lose over the last 4 years, that's for certain.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Great respect for you on a lot of topics, 61. And that goes for Coldworld and Greengold and some others. But I think the anti-front office stuff is way, way, over the top here. We've gone 47-19 and will probably be good next year with a new young QB and some new skill position talent. Our offense, which foundered badly and often last year, should actually be improved, as will our record.
The stuff about Rodgers is......sheeeeesh. We drafted his replacement and got two MVP seasons out of him after while we prepared the successor. He's ready, now, according to what McGinn said , and what people who've been on the field with him say. Rodgers 2.0. . We're likely to get some very good trade compensation. Exactly how could this have worked out better, other than Rodgers winning a title? I think it's commendable. Did Pittsburgh handle their transition from an HOF QB? How about New England? Denver after Manning? New Orleans after Brees? Did any of them get replaced by a handpicked successor who developed behind them for years? Did any of them bring a load of draft picks in trade? Did any of them win the MVP twice in their last three years?
We should be praising the front office over the way they've prepared the team for a Rodgers-less existence, and that day is now.
Since'61
February 21, 2023 at 10:55 am
I think that by now everyone on this site realizes that when we discuss the Packers STs we're not including the FG unit. We have all posted and agreed that Crosby has been great despite the multiple on going ST failures in KO returns and coverage, in our punt returns and coverage and in blocking for FGs and Punts.
My fault I try to write with respect for my audience and the level of knowledge they bring to our blog. In this case "I took thee for thy better." In any case to clarify, besides Mason Crosby our ST units have been ranked in the bottom quarter of the league until 2022 when Bisaccia took over. Even then the Packer STs still hover closer to mediocrity than elite.
As I've posted before our difference on the FO is a matter of perspective. You look at the recent past seasons as a guarantee of success for the near term future. I see the past seasons as lost/wasted opportunities and as the reason why we're at the point of cap hell, with little to no direction for the future of the team. You may think the decisions have been made but yet they are waiting for Rodgers to come out of his darkness and tell them what to do. I'm not comfortable with that management approach at all. It's an abdication of their responsibilities.
Having said that it may all work out fine for the Packers but I'm not seeing an SB for the Packers until we get past Rodgers, Murphy, salary cap hell and the current coaching staff. I have also been watching sports long enough to know that anything can happen and often the unexpected does actually occur. So maybe that will happen for the Packers in 2023. I have too many years as a professional manager to consider hope and/or inaction as a plan. I have never seen it work or be sustained for any length of time at the professional level to consider it a realistic plan or approach for success. Of course sports often proves to be the exception to the rule.
This article is about Bart Starr remaining too long and if I have learned anything from this article and this off season is that I have in fact remained in these discussions for far too long. So while the Packers wallow in their stupidity and malaise I'm moving on for a bit. Adieu for now. Stay well. Thanks, Since '61
Leatherhead
February 20, 2023 at 08:18 pm
""LH - Just the fact that by your own admission the Packers have been working on this alleged plan for 4 years tells me all I need to know about the ineptitude of the Packers FO.
OK, here's a softball. Since the merger in 1970, what four year period in Packer history has been better than the last four? I'll concede you the Favre MVP years , but other than that, I think it's going to be a real short list.
You see a four year failure. I see one of them most successful four year runs in team history.
jurp
February 20, 2023 at 03:46 pm
Didn't we lose the KC game in 21 (?) due to a ST fuck-up?
greengold
February 20, 2023 at 04:23 pm
Oh, you mean when we blew two FGs, one of them blocked, and then GB muffed a punt for another KC score?
Leatherhead
February 20, 2023 at 06:42 pm
OK, I stand corrected. Special Teams was the biggest factor in that loss, aside from the fact that Rodgers didn't play and we only scored a couple of points.
jurp
February 20, 2023 at 03:40 pm
An MVP season for any one player does NOT trump a Super Bowl victory for the TEAM, so yes, saddling the team with this ridiculously ludicrous contract is fiduciary mis-management.
Sometimes things happen AFTER they were supposed to happen.
I cannot believe that you don't see three seasons ending in heart-breaking losses as failures. No one gets a ring because they have a great won-loss record! But - we've discussed our philosophies on the meaning of "success" in sports ad nauseum. That horse isn't just dead, it's skeletal by now. :)
Igotthisround
February 20, 2023 at 09:13 am
Off topic but …
Anybody need a new car?
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1997-plymouth-neon/
T7Steve
February 20, 2023 at 09:27 am
I think you're selling this a year or two, too late. LOL
pantz_bURp
February 20, 2023 at 09:43 am
No worries IGTR...I appreciate your use of Autosuggestion. :)
Good luck! 👍
Johnblood27
February 20, 2023 at 10:15 am
I was going all-in on this beauty... until the STICKY DASH became an issue... I guess the dash is better than the back seat!
pantz_bURp
February 20, 2023 at 10:21 am
Maybe Jack Tatum of the Raiders drove it once?
Bitternotsour
February 20, 2023 at 11:44 am
a better joke if you remembered that it was Lester (the molester) Hayes who had all that stickum on his hands.
pantz_bURp
February 20, 2023 at 11:46 am
Dang, thanks for the heads up and correction BnS! I had the wrong dude....
Johnblood27
February 21, 2023 at 11:55 am
...they all look the same...
Raiduhs DB's that is...
greengold
February 20, 2023 at 11:18 am
underrated offseason offering here by jb...!
Spock
February 21, 2023 at 08:40 am
Thanks, but no thanks, I'll keep my 1997 Honda Accord Wagon (last year Honda made a wagon) with its 155,000 miles odometer (I'm the original owner). Judging by the interior seats, there is no way that car only has 11,000 on it as mine still look brand new. The "missing" Carfax info from 2003 to 2023 and questions on the odometer make it really suspect, lol. The Packer signatures are cool though.
pantz_bURp
February 20, 2023 at 09:32 am
For #12's sake and the Packers more so, don't attempt a one last dance, of the last two, last dances. I appreciate both parties in this situation and don't want them (12 and the Packer organization) to hang onto each other again and pull a Thelma and Louise right off the cliff.
* if you are adamant in doing so, please don't use the cool autographed car mentioned above. May I suggest a Ford Pinto or AMC Pacer ...
It's okay to let go sometimes. In fact, it may prove necessary and down-right healthy to do so.
LambeauPlain
February 20, 2023 at 09:53 am
Has Rodgers emerged from his hibernation in the darkness yet? Did he see his shadow and two more years of the Packers being knee capped by the cap?
croatpackfan
February 20, 2023 at 10:21 am
Check the weather forecast for the location ACR is in darkness. And, even if it will be dark cloudy, he might see his shadow through halucination period...
Leatherhead
February 20, 2023 at 10:18 am
He’s done here. Quit worrying about him.
Not just sports. People always want to stay until the bar closes, even though there are other things they should/could be doing.
Can we talk about our team now, instead of the guy who used to be our QB? Because we’re headed towards a potentially great draft, we have a new QB, and we’re going to be back in the hunt.
I don’t fault the Packers for bringing back the MVP. He’s not the MVP anymore.
stockholder
February 20, 2023 at 10:40 am
Ok - You guys had your fun. Such BS,
Rodgers isn't going to walk away from
A POSSIBLE 59 mil.
Quote: We will wait for Rodgers decision.
The argument of drafting Starr's replacement
Is hog wash. It was in case of injury. (Knees)
And having a winning roster.
TT drafted Rodgers, But he also drafted Brohm.
Making sure Rodgers was the starter.
Favre had problems. It was the media that
wanted #4 gone. And justification for Rodgers.
But they justified John Hadl too.
And TT did trade his back-up QBs.
Which is what must happen now.
Love hasn't proved anything.
He's only proved Favoritism exists in GB.
And that has been the wrecking ball
of a talent filled roster.
Players will leave GB for money.
It's the reality of business in the NFL.
But a gm who purposely starts a controversy.
And has refused to get a MVP weapons.
Shows the hidden feelings of hate.
Jealousy, and pig headedness.
Gutey is a intolerable ass to Rodgers.
A winner that has had to put this team
on his shoulders for our Love.
Our goals. Our Pride.
Coldworld
February 20, 2023 at 11:00 am
“Excess of grief for the dead is madness; for it is an injury to the living, and the dead know it not.”
Xenophon
greengold
February 20, 2023 at 11:08 am
Weep & gnash teeth much?
LOL. :-P
fastmoving
February 20, 2023 at 02:30 pm
You know AR never won when it counts since 10 years even he had better players around him then most SB winning QBs. He got his freinds, his blind side shield. Hell he and his buddies got more than 70% of the cap and did nothing.
But man, whats can you expecct from a a guy who drinks his own stuff and ask Rogan what to do. Man, he may be one of the weakest dumbsterfire you can find, worse than Rogan.
He could have ask you for advice and who in the whole world would do that? Strange times.
BS was a hero..........a leader..........who had more moral and vlues in his little fingers than AR in his 60 year old body. He was never our pride......and now he is just a shame for all of us.
CheesedDeadHead
February 20, 2023 at 11:39 am
I just saw a UWGB add on the TV. Had Mark Murphy and a few others with soundbites about a UWGB education. The interesting blurb was from a young lady "we never stop learning". I thought it was ironic that MM would be in that commercial considering that statement would not apply to his leadership in any way shape or form. I guess "we never stop sinking to new lows" just doesn't fit with an advertisement about higher education.
ImaPayne
February 20, 2023 at 11:49 am
Being an olde geezer, one of the sad things looking back is how many stars stayed to long and embarrassed themselves. Not one beat father time. Not a big baseball fan I had to read how Willie Mays made a fool of himself the last couple of years.
One guy I did see do it right was Heavy Weight boxer Marciano who went 20-0 and retired in his prime, never to return to the ring. I was a young boy then but still remember him quitting while he was ahead. Jim Brown too. Went out a winner and quit when he knew his best was about over time to leave. Toss in Sanders who I think figured out his best was left on the field, time to go.
Was happy to have seen them all in their prime. Those that stayed to long, not so happy.
T7Steve
February 20, 2023 at 01:22 pm
I think Sanders AND Megatron would have played much longer and thrived, but Detroit wouldn't set them free, and they didn't want to waste their time and bodies on a losing system. They were used to winning all their lives.
The_Baloney_Stops_Here
February 20, 2023 at 01:46 pm
I actually just watched a documentary about the absolutely tragic end to Muhamoud Ali's career. His doctor told him like 3 years before he retired that he had early onset Parkinson's. Ali ignored the doctor so the doc quit. Meanwhile, the money hungry scumbags in his entourage kept convincing him to continue fighting because the money was too good. He ended up getting destroyed so bad in his last few fights that you could literally the deterioration from one fight to the next. His speech became slower and stuttered more, his quickness in the ring disappeared, and he even began forgetting large chunks of fights. Who knows how much better his quality of life wouldve been had he listened to that doctor? Doesnt really relate to the Packers but your comment reminded me of it.
jurp
February 20, 2023 at 04:00 pm
Your comment does obliquely relate to the Packers because it relates directly to the increased risk of CTE for older players. The longer a star hangs on, the greater the chance that the star suffers that fate, regardless of position. :(
PackAttack4155
February 20, 2023 at 06:07 pm
The Ali vs. Holmes fight is a tough watch, should've never happened.
Leatherhead
February 20, 2023 at 12:00 pm
Ken Lass.....if you were a media guy in Green Bay during Bart's tenure as HC, did you ever know a guy at WBAY who went by the on air name of 'John Q'?
T7Steve
February 20, 2023 at 12:45 pm
You guys are at each other's throats so much today, that the Packer coaches must think they have a day off.
The_Baloney_Stops_Here
February 20, 2023 at 01:56 pm
"The snozzberries taste like snozzberries!"
-Aaron Rodgers on ayahuasca, probably
PackAttack4155
February 20, 2023 at 05:58 pm
Great movie.
KnockTheSnotOutOfYou
February 20, 2023 at 01:57 pm
Good article!
Curious if anywhere on CCTV there has been any mention of Bob McGinnis article regarding the Packers being disgusted with Aaron Rodgers this past season?
greengold
February 20, 2023 at 02:28 pm
I just referenced that, myself, in this discussion. It is really a remarkable "about face," with regards to the team's stance on AR.
KnockTheSnotOutOfYou
February 20, 2023 at 03:55 pm
GG & Maine,
Timing....
Do you think this McGinn information was intentionally released by Packers when Rodgers allegedly in darkness to push him to be traded? I find the reference that Gutey shared with someone in league that the Pack was disgusted with Rodgers & they were ready to play Love...yet after the thumb & rib injuries and losing 5 straight they still never allowed Love to play. Does that make sense to you? Doesn't make sense to me! If disgusted they had multiple reasons to bench Rodgers and give Love experience. I like reference they see Love as Rodgers 2.0. :)
greengold
February 20, 2023 at 04:10 pm
I honestly think McGinn releasing this information as all attention now dives directly into the 2023 NFL Draft 66 days from today (Hey, Ray!!!) was by design.
McGinn always likes being seen as a Yoda figure of the Draft and NFL Personnel insider info. Nothing more, but, the genie is out of that bottle now.
Figure, the Packers may have taken a number of calls on AR's psychoactive drug use. Nothing new there, but, comments like that might help their PR standing amongst the fan base.
"Disgusted," is a relatively strong word coming from 1265. It's a word that could be helpful to the Packers Organization in moving this forward, from a PR standpoint.
13TimeChamps
February 20, 2023 at 04:25 pm
Intentionally letting it be known that they're disgusted with Rodgers and ready to move on with Love would have to be the worst pre-trade negotiating strategy I've ever heard of
EDIT: If true of course, which I highly doubt.
MainePackFan
February 20, 2023 at 02:39 pm
The" My sources say Rodgers won't come back unless the Packers fire Gute." story hasn't aged well. The fact that this guy hates Rodgers is quite apparent if you listen to the interview on Ty Dunnes' podcast. I'll go with the" grain of salt" approach when it comes to his "reporting" :)
LeotisHarris
February 20, 2023 at 04:26 pm
Yep, a super extra-medium-sized grain of salt for me, too. McGinn be cranky and no fan of 12.
Leatherhead
February 20, 2023 at 05:01 pm
If he said it, and then changed his mind, is that McGinn's fault?
MainePackFan
February 20, 2023 at 06:17 pm
Sure LH, we'll go with that. I'm sure that report was spot on until that sneaky SOB Aaron Rodgers pulled the rug out from under Poor Bob. I guess I missed the follow up clarification from McGinn. All I have to go by is what I can see. Gute is still the GM, and as of this writing, AR is still their QB.
Sorry, I will maintain my "grain of salt" philosophy when it comes to "my sources" reports :)
Leatherhead
February 20, 2023 at 07:48 pm
It wouldn't be the first, or only, time, that a player says something to a reporter and later denies it. That goes for Rodgers, that goes for McGinn. He said it, then said he didn't say it (because there was no record of it). I don't see how that impacts on McGinn's considerable credibility.
Gutekunst has said, publicly, that Love is ready. Now, the Packers Front Office have used McGinn to release a very pointed, public statement that should certainly persuade Rodgers that his time in Green Bay is finished, so he might want to use his time at Darkfest to consider his alternatives. (which are retire or seek a trade).
When Mcginn says "Sources with first hand knowledge of the situation", he's not talking about some custodian who overheard something, or a secretary, or a spouse. He's talking about people like Murphy, Gutekunst, and Ball, since they are the people who would have first hand knowledge.
And if he were lying, wouldn't Gutekunst, or LaFleur, or Murphy say "No, that's not true"? Of course, they'd want to set things straight. But they already have, and now Rodgers knows the score, cold and hard. They are "disgusted" with him, and they really think they've got something in Love.
Look, we all get to choose what we're going to believe. I believe the Packers are finished with Rodgers, like what they have in Love, and have been making plans to do this for years. Meanwhile, Rodgers was the MVP, so you want the MVP on your team, but he's not the MVP anymore. The dynamic is different.
It's over. I'd bet a taco on that.
stockholder
February 20, 2023 at 07:57 pm
Obviously you believe every thing you're told.
Ok - Johnny Lee - Quit Lookin' For Love.
Every thing done in the NFL is a Marketing decision.
Leatherhead
February 20, 2023 at 08:20 pm
Actually Stockholder, I usually look for what you believe, and then believe the opposite.
Bitternotsour
February 20, 2023 at 08:52 pm
McGinn has zero credibility. He is literally the angry drunk on the barstool that you try not to engage with in the hope that he'll just shut up.
That said, your take on Stockholder is sound, the only thing worse than his/her takes on football is their command of the language.
MainePackFan
February 21, 2023 at 05:13 am
"It's over. I'd bet a taco on that."
Sorry LH. I just bought eggs, I can't afford a taco ; )
beerandbrats
February 20, 2023 at 03:39 pm
I'm curious as well! The Packers are disgusted with him? The Packers are done with him?
Those are mighty strong words! Did AR12 hear any of this before he entered his darkness retreat or will this be the first thing he hears when he comes out of the darkness?
This could get ugly very fast...we need a damage assessment CHTV!
Leatherhead
February 20, 2023 at 08:22 pm
He probably heard it all. It was almost certainly intended that he would.
He can sit in the darkness and contemplate, but at least he knows the score. The Packers don't want him back, and he can choose retirement or seek a trade.
Had they waited, Rodgers might have spent time in the dark thinking returning was an option. They didn't want him thinking that, because it isn't.
PackAttack4155
February 20, 2023 at 05:20 pm
I wouldn't be surprised if that's some heavy embellishment for attention/clicks/viewers. Contemporary media at its finest. I don't know if or why someone within the organization would share such info that would no doubt cause the sports media world to erupt. Everyone involved seems at peace with whatever is going to happen, why exacerbate that?
ricky
February 20, 2023 at 02:26 pm
In an era of where the running game was supreme, and the fullback was more than a run-blocker, the Packers also were blessed with Starr. He had the same kind of killer instinct that Tom Brady has, and was absolutely scary on third and short passing, where he would have a fake run, and drop back and heave a long gainer to McGee or Dowler or Dale. But, as usual, he stuck around too long. As did Ray Nitschke, who the fans loved. But when it's time, the team has to make decisions that are best for the team, and not worry about the feelings of the fans or anyone else. Better that proverbial one year too early than one year too late. The team should have learned this with Favre. But, that boat has sailed. Back to Starr. Not only a great QB, but also very interested in changing the lives of youth for the better. A sterling example of what it means to be a man, and the very definition of "Packer people".
jurp
February 20, 2023 at 04:08 pm
IIRC, the team was going to have to cut Nitschke at the end of TC, but they told him the truth about his play and encouraged him to retire. And he did, and the team retired his number.
jhtobias
February 20, 2023 at 03:04 pm
Not gonna get into should he stay or go that is his decision . I do read that the packers are screwed this yr with the salary cap either way which is fine and even more reason to part ways with the legend
Look no can really believe this packer team is a super bowl contending team with Rodgers anymore . 3 yrs in a row he yes Aaron has been outplayed at home when it mattered most .
If Aaron wants to come back yes the packers have no choice can't cut him it is 99 million dead cap not gonna happen.
Here is the Ace up the sleeve Green Bay has . Bench him name Jordan your starting QB and let the chips fall where they may . no way his ego allows this . I bet except for the few green bay players loyal to aaron if there even here anyomre and we all know who they are will probably be relieved he is gone or benched.
MainePackFan
February 20, 2023 at 03:29 pm
Why bench him? Just open it up for competition if that's how you want to play it. Let the best man win. I'm sure no one here objects to the good old fashioned "iron sharpens iron" thought process.
PackAttack4155
February 20, 2023 at 05:16 pm
Dang, late to the party with reading this good article! It really doesn't matter if all parties involved are happy, but it seems like the FO, coaches, and Rodgers are all okay with whatever happens. Which is nice to see. I do think its time to move on, if the trade package is right. I also wouldn't mind Rodgers eclipsing Favre's passing yards record for the team. After watching the Real Sports report on Favre's alleged dirty dealings in MS, which was particularly damning with the evidence, not having him at the top of the record books might be a priority for Murphy and the board of directors.
Packerpasty
February 20, 2023 at 06:16 pm
AR12 is staying put. My grapevine is secure in its knowledge.