Packers Snap Counts V. Tampa Bay: Week 15

The Packers have no margin for error on offense due to a terrible defense.

 

 

The Packers elevated RB Kenyan Draike and WR Bo Melton from the practice squad.  They also activated Eric Stokes from the injured reserve list.  The inactive players due to injury were CB Jaire Alexander, S Darnell Savage, WR Christian Watson, and RB AJ Dillon.  The healthy scratches were WR Toure, OLB Brenton Cox, and OT Caleb Jones.  QB Sean Clifford did not play.

 

Player Snaps % STs
Myers 60 100 3-12%
Jenkins 60    
Tom 60 100 4-16%
Walker 41 68 4-16%
Runyan 31 52 4-16%
Rhyan 29 48 1-4%
Nijman 19 32 4-16%
Newman     4-16%

 

The Packers initially showed some running ability but ended up gaining 60 yards on 17 carries, a 3.5-yard average.  That is not going to cut it in the NFL.  The Buccaneers had 6 tackles for loss.  The line allowed 6 quarterback hits and 2 sacks on 39 passing attempts.  The line is something less than mediocre.  The only position the Packers should not be actively looking to upgrade for 2024 is right tackle, Zach Tom.  Fans have largely given the NFL's second-highest paid guard a pass, and perhaps rightly so, but Jenkins has not been the best or even the second-best offensive lineman on the team.  One can hope that is due to his MCL injury sustained earlier this season.  Jenkins does not whiff much or otherwise have glaring issues, but there aren't enough good plays. 

There is no need to throw the baby out with the bath water, though.  Walker still has time and has value as a backup swing tackle who can start a few games if necessary.  Perhaps he can develop into more.  Runyan is not the worst guard who plays a lot of snaps in the NFL.  Clearly, the Packers are force-feeding Rhyan to find out what they have in him.  I, myself, do not see any reason for the rotation of Walker and Nijman.  It is not a hill I want to fight for, but I don't think there is much difference between the two, though I would give the nod to Walker.  Since Nijman will be a free agent in 2024, is he willing to return to the Packers given his demotion?  Should the Packers cough up some money to retain him?  I suspect the answer is no to both questions.  Myers had a couple of penalties and otherwise was not good, but he can play if necessary in the NFL.  He has one more year to show consistency, as sometimes he can look very good.  

Given that an infusion of talent is necessary, the Packers need to decide if their current coaches can mold young offensive line prospects into good NFL pros.  If the draft is kind enough to line up well with the Packers' draft board, at least a couple of offensive linemen should be selected, with some early.  A solid veteran lineman would not be amiss, either.

 

Player Snaps % STs
Jones 29 48  
Taylor 26 43 9-36%
Drake 5 8  

  

This game featured the return of Aaron Jones to the lineup.  He touched the ball 8 times on their first possession, gaining 44 yards (5.5-yards per carry).  However, the Packers could not convert a third down and one at the Tampa Bay 3-yard line; indeed, Jones lost a yard on the run and an incomplete pass on fourth down led to a turnover on downs.  Jones added 2 receptions for 8 yards in the first half.  And that was that for Jones, for the most part.  Jones would carry the ball 4 times for 10 yards in the second half and add two more receptions for 8 yards.  Patrick Taylor had receptions of -1 and -3 in the second half to finish with 2 catches for minus 4 yards.  Kenyan Drake carried the ball once for zero yards in the first half and Patrick Taylor got his only carry (6 yards) in the second half.  The Packers gained 17yards on 6 carries in the second half.  Jones ran 13 routes and Taylor ran 17, per Pro Football Focus.

 

Player Snaps % STs
Kraft 57 95 12-48%
Sims 10 17 8-32%
Deguara 9 15 9-36%

 

Tucker Kraft caught all four of his targets for 57 yards, with 49 yards coming on 3 first-half receptions.  He caught an odd-looking little screen for a touchdown.  Sims had no receptions on 1 target.  Deguara was not targeted though he ran 6 routes.  Kraft ran 39 routes and Sims 4, per PFF.  Kraft is not being asked to line up as a mismatch against a linebacker or safety as the Packers did with Musgrave.  Kraft's receptions come within the framework of the offense, though he shows pretty good yards-after-the-catch ability and good hands.  His blocking is steadily improving.  Deguara appears to be less a part of the offense as the year progresses.  

   

Player Snaps % STs
Doubs 54 90  
Wicks 47 78  
Reed 25 42 1-4%
Heath 20 33 7-28%
Melton 18 30 5-20%

 

Doubs caught all 3 of his targets for 30 yards with a long of 12.  He ran 36 routes.  It is a little curious that Doubs rarely comes off the field as he looks like a #3 WR.  Wicks caught 6 of his 7 targets for 97 yards (16.2-yard average) with a long of 22.  He ran 31 routes for a whopping 3.13 yards per route.  Reed caught 6 of his 8 targets for 52 yards on 17 routes run.  That is only 8.67 yards per reception, but it is a whopping 3.06-yards/route run.  Reed also ran a nice route to catch his touchdown pass, slowing his momentum to get his feet in bounds.  It was a bit of a body catch, but Reed tends to be the big-play receiver.  Reed had no rushing attempts.  Heath caught all 3 of his targets for 29 yards on 16 routes run.  Melton caught one of his 2 targets for 7 yards on 13 routes run.      

 

Player Snaps % STs
Love 60 100  
Clifford DNP    

 

Jordan Love completed 29 of 39 attempts (74.36%) for 284 yards (7.28-yards/attempt) with 2 touchdowns and no interceptions.  He finished with a 111.5 passer rating.  He took 2 sacks and was hit 6 times.  Love fumbled on a 19-yard sack with a little over 4 minutes left in the game.  Tampa Bay was able to run out the clock though it needed a 4th down conversion.  Love had a better performance this week than last week, both statistically and with regard to his footwork, though there were some lapses in the latter aspect.  The team has enough talented pass-catchers to produce enough offense with Love at quarterback.  It needs better blocking offensive linemen, particularly run-blocking linement, and it will have to make some decisions at running back.

 

Player Snaps % STs
Clark 44 71  
Slaton 39 63 10-40%
Wyatt 37 60 6-24%
Wooden 15 24 6-24%
Brooks 12 19 7-28%

 

The defensive line had a decent day, particularly Clark, Slaton and Wyatt.  The Buccaneers gained 99 yards on 27 attempts, a 3.67-yard average.  Their running backs gained 101 yards on 25 carries, a 4.0 average, with a long of 22 and no touchdowns.  Slaton had 5 tackles (3 solo) while Clark had 4 (3 solo) with 2 tackles for loss, 2 quarterback hits, 2 sacks and a pass defensed.  Wyatt added 3 solo tackles and a sack.  Wooden had a solo tackle and Brooks had an assist.  

 

Player Snaps % STs
Campbell 61 98 6-24%
Walker 51 82  
Gary 37 60  
Smith 37 60  
Van Ness 26 42 7-28%
Enagbare 25 40 9-36%
Wilson     21-84%
Welch     15-60%
McDuffie     14-56%

  

Walker had 6 tackles (3 solo) while Campbell had 5, all solo, including 1 tackle for loss.  I think we can live with their results as to run defense.  The coverage issues probably merit a re-watch.  Inside linebackers are going to have trouble covering WRs like Chris Godwin, Mike Evans and David Moore.  Second and TB gets Campbell matched up on Campbell?  That's going to work out well... for Tampe Bay.  That said, tight end Cade Otten caught two 22-yard passes to finish with 44 receiving yards.  Otten ran 31 routes and caught both of his targets.  Tight ends Ko Kieft and Payne Durham combined to run 8 routes but had just one catch for 2 yards.  However, RB Rachad White on 2 targets caught a 26 yard touchdown pass and had a 24 yard reception.  Campbell could not quite keep up with White on a crosser and the Packers DB (I think it was Nixon) was a little late closing on the play, and both missed the tackle, allowing a ton of yards after the catch and the touchdown.  Did the ILBs attain proper depth or where the DBs just too deep?  There too often was a chasm between the depth of the ILBs and the DBs in zone.  I would just refer you to Aaron Nagler's dispassionate opinion here.  [The link is NOT SAFE FOR WORK.]

Green Bay needs far more from its best players.  Gary and Preston Smith had quiet games.  Enagbare had a strip sack.  Since he hit the ball as Mayfield was trying to throw, he did not get a quarterback hit.  Van Ness had a sack.

 

Player Snaps % STs
Owens 62 100 13-52%
Valentine 62 100 6-24%
Ford 62 100  
Stokes 47 76  
Nixon 46 72 13-52%
Ballentine 15 24 6-24%
Johnson  4 6 5-20%
Rochell     15-60%
Anderson     15-60%
Long     5-20

 

The opposing quarterback had a perfect passer rating.  If Baker Mayfield wasn't sacked, trouble was brewing.

Owens had 12 tackles (7 solo) while Ford had 8 (4 solo) and a pass defensed.  Valentine had 5 tackles (4 solo) and a pass defensed (and if that's news to you, you weren't watching Valentine).  Stokes had a tackle for loss and Nixon had one assisted tackle.  

 

SPECIAL TEAMS:

Carlson made his field goals and extra points.  Whelan punted twice for a 47-yard average gross, 40.5 net, with one inside the 20.

 

WR: 2.73

TE: 1.27

RB 1.00

DL: 2.37

ILB: 1.81

OLB: 2.02

DB: 4.81

 

 

Photo courtesy of Dan Powers, USA Today

Statistics coutesy of NFLgsis and Pro Football Focus

 

PLEASE SUBSCRIBE TO OUR CHEESEHEAD NATION WEEKLY NEWSLETTER HERE.

__________________________

7 points
 

Comments (61)

Fan-Friendly This filter will hide comments which have ratio of 5 to 1 down-vote to up-vote.
Thegreatreynoldo's picture

December 18, 2023 at 05:33 am

Tucker Kraft. Caleb Jones. I got them down!

The Packers' running game looks different with a back who can threaten the edge. Vita Vea didn't terrorize (some NTs have had really good stats against GB, but Vea settled for 2 assisted tackles). The basic components of an offense are in place with a couple of new OL.

My mind shouldn't start drifting towards the draft just yet. The next three games are all winnable. GB still has a 27% chance of making the playoffs last I heard.

I am not a fan of Joe Barry, but to be honest, I think Butkus might be worse.

5 points
5
0
Coldworld's picture

December 18, 2023 at 06:21 am

I agree with you on Butkus. This whole OL is a mess. Jenkins could just as easily be suffering from the same malaise that has turned Runyon from a good starter into a liability.

This IOL (and I really wanted 2 interior players in the last draft) is a major issue. At this point Myers had never been above replacement grade and enters his last year of his contract next year. Jenkins is underperforming and Runyon playing himself off the roster.

On the OL, weaknesses magnify and we’ve done nothing to try to address that meaningfully. It was a problem last year but a is a much bigger problem this year with the same individuals. Nijman has been alienated when he was an adequate Fillon for a couple of years (and our best run blocker). I still don’t know what Rhyan is or is not. To cap it off, we rotate at positions where playing as a unit is key, but not enough to really learn much. That’s without getting into positional choices as well.

To me the OL had been an exposition of failed coaching in every way for the last 2 seasons.

3 points
5
2
SicSemperTyrannis's picture

December 18, 2023 at 11:09 am

I couldn't agree more.

And Mt Caleb STILL hasn't played his first NFL snap! Telfort and Tenuta still have to be evaluated, but the JRJ vs Rhyan puzzle still isn't solved yet. Nijman, I think his playing suffers from rest, and quickly. Before he was sent to the doghouse he was pretty damn good.

We're seeing favoritism rather than merit. Is that the Packers way?

-1 points
0
1
Guam's picture

December 18, 2023 at 07:46 am

TGR; I am coming around to your view of Nijman, He really hasn't been an improvement on Walker - not any worse than Walker, but no improvement either. The OL line needs some serious investment from the upcoming draft and a new coach.

I like the Packer's young receivers and tight ends - they are a better looking group than the Packers have had for many years. Wicks was a steal in the fifth round!

The defense.......I dunno. Did Gute draft that badly with his eight first round picks or is Barry that bad a coach? I am hoping it is Barry as that fix is much easier.

3 points
3
0
LambeauPlain's picture

December 18, 2023 at 08:40 am

Butkus is not worse...yet. Barry has been a failure in his DC role for almost 7 consecutive years. Butkus is almost at 2 years of incompetence.

But the race to the bottom will become a horse race if MLF remains the HC.

1 points
3
2
Leatherhead's picture

December 18, 2023 at 09:21 am

We have a lot of backups playing in that secondary. Nixon, Ford, Ballantine, Valentine, Owens.....these are all backups/special teams guys.

I'm just thankful that we stuffed the run. Only 3.9 yards/carry, under 100 yards total. Because stuffing the run is so much more important than limiting the pass. Because most yards, points, and explosive plays come from pass plays, not run plays.

Worst defensive showing of the season, but at least we stuffed the run. We should be happy.

-4 points
2
6
T7Steve's picture

December 18, 2023 at 09:33 am

Seems like Tampa did ok against the run and Love did ok passing.

Wouldn't it be good to do both, like a good D should?

If they were bad stopping the run would that have made your backups and special teamers better?

Face it. If we could have run the ball after the first drive of the game, we could have kept our D on the bench and won the game. Tampa stopped the run after making adjustments and still won the game.

I don't think you should have to pick your poison. Like they did, they could stop the run and still rush the passer so as not to expose their DBs.

4 points
4
0
Leatherhead's picture

December 18, 2023 at 10:57 am

""I don't think you should have to pick your poison.""

I don't think we're going to go out and overwhelm the rest of the league with superior talent and coaching, even through injuries, over a 17 game season.

I heard a discussion about 20 years ago, when people had time to understand the impact of the salary cap , and they pointed out that you can only afford to pay about 10-12 people, and pretty much everyone else had to be on a rookie deal or a vet minimum.

".....like a good D should"

Then we're going to have to have some kind of an understanding of the definition. To me, that means points. Dallas gave up 30 yesterday. SF gave up 29. The Vikings gave up 27. Those are three of the top defensive teams in the NFC, and all in the top 7 in the league.

Minnesota and SF are in the Top 10 in total yardage, passing yards, and rushing yards, and POINTS. So I'd suggest we use them as the standard for the NFC right now. And both of those teams have had days where they gave up too many points.

The Packers have had two bad defensive games this year, at home both times, against the Lions and now the Bucs. The other 12 games, the defense has shown up and done a pretty good job most of the time.

I think this is a passing league, and stopping the pass has to be a bigger priority than stopping the run. That's why we spend picks on pass defenders and pass rusher. Pass defense starts with guys who can cover, and right now we're playing Day 3 rookies and UDFAS instead of first rounders like Alexander and Savage. If you put those two guys on the field yesterday, Tampa doesn't get all those yards in the air.

The run yardage stuff is simpler: If your offense puts some pressure on the scoreboard, the other team will run less and throw more. That's how SF does it, and that's how I think it should be done. I don't sweat about run defense. Chicago has the best run defense in the league and I don't see how it's helping them win many games. Lombardi had nearly the worst run defense in the league, and it didn't seem to stop him from winning games.

-4 points
0
4
LLCHESTY's picture

December 18, 2023 at 11:49 am

Quick question, if the Packers rushed for 200 yards in game would you expect that it was a win?

1 points
1
0
Leatherhead's picture

December 18, 2023 at 12:22 pm

Not necessarily . Did we turn it over? Was it one or two long runs and a bunch of 3 yard runs? (the majority of runs in the NFL are for 3 yards or less),

It's points. Yesterday, we gave up 4 TD passes, our worst showing of the season, and you're going to lose when that happens regardless of how many yards you rush for. It's more important to defend the pass, since that accounts for the majority of the points, especially near the end of the game.

In the golden days of summer, it looked like our secondary could be pretty good, with Alexander and Savage and Stokes, but those guys aren't playing or they're playing hurt. The guys like Ballantine and Valentine and Ford and Owens are doing the best that they can but those are big holes that you're filling with Day 3 rookies and UDFAs..

The pass defense had a bad day. So did SF's run defense, giving up 239 on the ground in a win. The Cowboys gave up 266 on the ground in a crushing loss.

Truly, you give this rushing yards/yard per rush, etc. more ink that it deserves. It's points, most of which come via the air, often via big plays. Some guy plugging it into the line over and over for 3 yards and getting a couple of longer runs doesn't bother me. 20 carries for 100 yards, half of which came on two runs? Doesn't bother me nearly as bad as getting the secondary diced up for four TDs.

-1 points
0
1
LLCHESTY's picture

December 18, 2023 at 12:39 pm

Truly, a wishy washy response. If you told me the Packers rushed for 200 yards one week and the next Love threw for 380 and 4 TDs I'd be ecstatic. That would put a lot on a defenses plate having to plan for either attack.

As for the Packers defense it's junk and changes need to/will be made. 29th in DVOA going into yesterday's game and I highly doubt they improved.

2 points
2
0
Leatherhead's picture

December 18, 2023 at 12:56 pm

Then we'll agree to disagree. I think it's points, you think it's other stuff.

-4 points
0
4
LLCHESTY's picture

December 18, 2023 at 01:10 pm

It's points in context. How many points did the Saints give up to the Giants yesterday? Devito ran for 36 yards and got sacked 7 times. That makes 27 sacks in the last four games given up by the Giants, the Packers had zero. How many times did a LB end up on Godwin yesterday without adjustments?

It's a soft defense led by a DC that seems unable to stop the bleeding once it starts. Better get used to the fact your boy Barry is gone after this season.

4 points
4
0
Leatherhead's picture

December 18, 2023 at 02:52 pm

Oh...Points In Context. I understand now. It's another manipulated stat.

Barry is not my boy. I think he's done a decent job, I'm not sure the next guy will be any better. We just had our worst game of the season.

-4 points
0
4
Bitternotsour's picture

December 18, 2023 at 06:04 pm

measured and contextualized. for me it's not barry. it's the guy who hired him. but your points are well taken, back-up corners, and the dam finally broke. i understand the packers defensive philosophy. rush 4. play zone. keep the game in front of you. hard to get very enthused by it (at it's core)

my issue is they're boring and unentertaining. it pains me to be entertained by Todd Bowles defense, and it pains me when there are clearly playmakers on this defense who aren't put into positions to make plays.

1 points
1
0
Thegreatreynoldo's picture

December 19, 2023 at 01:19 am

I peruse OTC a decent amount. I'd agree that most teams "pay" about 10 to 12 players each year, give or take 1, maybe 2 if they are loading up or reloading. There often is another guy who is costing big-10 money but is on the dead money list.

Then, there are 5 to 8 guys making more than the minimum but not big-10 money. They can be mid-tier free agents (Nixon), or first round draft picks in the 3rd or 4th year as they get a little expensive. LVN hits $4M almost and $5.5M in 2025, and he's not a top 10 draft pick where the money is bigger. GB for some reason has not signed guys like Suh or Calais Campbell for that $8M mostly guaranteed type of deals.

Teams play 15 guys on offense (plus x amount more due to injuries) and another 15 on offense. Only paying 15 to 20 guys. Difference makers have to make a difference. they have to be available and play well. Then you need the rotational guys who have to step it up when called upon. And a team probably needs a guy to come out of no where to replace an injured starter.

Anyway, that's roughly how I see things. Coaching is big. Guys on rookie deals have to provide value, and probably need to do it in the 2nd or at the latest by their 3rd years.

0 points
0
0
SicSemperTyrannis's picture

December 18, 2023 at 11:10 am

Nixon isn't the first string slot corner?

1 points
1
0
Leatherhead's picture

December 18, 2023 at 11:27 am

I think Nixon was brought on board to return punts and kicks, and he's playing in the secondary because we don't have anybody better who is healthy right now.

-1 points
0
1
Coldworld's picture

December 18, 2023 at 03:00 pm

Yes he is. The team made that clear in camp after stating when resigning him that he would be seeing time on D.

2 points
2
0
SicSemperTyrannis's picture

December 18, 2023 at 11:04 am

Completely agreed that Butkus is the most glaringly obvious need to be out the door first, even moreso than JB. Who also needs to go. Yesterday. Last year. Don't hire him in the first place. Why even set up an interview? His record says "stay away," and he's done exactly what he did everywhere else.

0 points
0
0
NickPerry's picture

December 18, 2023 at 06:24 am

This is a great piece by TGR each week. I come here each Monday morning with my cup of Joe and read this and comments by other CHTV posters on ALL the other articles written right after a Packers game. My fellow posters said IT ALL yesterday so no need to pile on. But MY biggest concern is still right here and with the way the Packers Defense has played the last two weeks, my concerns about 2024 are LOUDER than ever.

A new Team President will be here for the 2025 season. He will want to hire his OWN people so I'm going out on a limb here and suggesting MLF isn't going to be part of that 2025 season. So WHAT IN THE HELL does the front office do? I mean HOW can you seriously consider MLF to continue to be the HC when he continues to not just hire but KEEP some of the worst assistant coaches in NFL history?

For the FIRST time since probably the 2005 season I DON'T CARE. Is 2024 going to be referred to the "Lost Season". The season where we kept a Putz as the HC because...WHY?

Thanks Matt, Joe, and ESPECIALLY you Mark Murphy.

4 points
7
3
Coldworld's picture

December 18, 2023 at 06:38 am

The only reason this season isn’t a total loss is the emergence of young talent and upside alongside Love. Overall, that and future seasons will be wasted under the leadership of LaFleur and the staff he has assembled and stands behind.

Murphy made himself the sole person able to intervene, well now he has to because the LaFleur hire was a dreadful mistake.

1 points
3
2
Thegreatreynoldo's picture

December 18, 2023 at 06:44 am

I was pleased to find a photo with Wicks and Kraft together. Great minds, and all that. Or not, of course.

2 points
2
0
SicSemperTyrannis's picture

December 18, 2023 at 11:18 am

Those two were bright spots in this game, and of this season. Doubs deserved a bigger role last night, he started hot and played well. JL's stats look good, but #11 often had to stop and wait for the ball to get to him.

1 points
1
0
LLCHESTY's picture

December 18, 2023 at 12:24 pm

I was really high on Doubs when he was drafted and thought he had high #2 upside but I'm not so sure about that anymore. Reed and Wicks have shown more upside, if Wicks can take another step next year look out. Watson is the wildcard and I think they need to find another deep WR for those times Watson is out. I don't recall Love throwing any deep balls yesterday and that can't happen just because Watson isn't on the field.

1 points
1
0
Thegreatreynoldo's picture

December 19, 2023 at 12:38 am

Agreed on Doubs. He does use his hands to catch the ball but he double clutches a lot: the catches aren't clean often enough. Thought #2 WR but now thinking #3 or #4. IDK. He is smooth, so if he can clean things up, perhaps he can look better.

0 points
0
0
Guam's picture

December 18, 2023 at 07:55 am

Solid point about LaFleur NP! While his inability to make in-game adjustments is a concern, the biggest strike against MLF as a head coach is his staff. Between Mennenga, Drayton, Butkus and Barry (and promoting Steno to OC), Lafleur has made an art form out of lousy assistant coaches.

Unfortunately I don't see Lafleur changing his ways nor do I see Murphy fixing his mess. It will be 2025 before we get the new management the Packers desperately need.

4 points
5
1
RCPackerFan's picture

December 18, 2023 at 08:15 am

"the biggest strike against MLF as a head coach is his staff. "

This is the biggest thing hurting LaFleur imo.

Look, I get he wants to give his guys the ability to do their job. He doesn't want to be a knee jerk coach. And there are more things going on besides who is calling the x's and o's. But the biggest flaw with LaFleur as a HC thus far has been his lack of quality coaches around him. His first Teams Coordinator I don't' think he had a lot of options. I believe he wanted Rizzo and was told no if I remember right. So he settled. Well now he got Rich, and he has been a good hire overall.

On defense, he wanted Jim Leonard but he turned down the job to stay at UW. I believe he wanted someone else and he signed elsewhere, He was down to his third choice. He went with a guy he knew that could run a defensive system that he liked. So he went with Barry. Unfortunately that move did not work. Last year he made the mistake of thinking the defense got better with Barry. He should have made the switch last year. He chose to stick with him, and to me that was the worst move to make. Its over now. Barry needs to be gone! I know its not all on Barry, but they need a new voice in the room the defense can listen to.

LaFleur has been a good coach otherwise. But he needs to recognize that they need to upgrade coaches around him. And its ok to hire outside the organization for positions.

2 points
2
0
Coldworld's picture

December 18, 2023 at 10:20 am

“LaFleur has been a good coach otherwise.” Dubious. In what ways? However, the reality is that if you can’t manage to assemble and develop coaches, you’ve no future as a Head Coach. 5 years in, same failings. He needs to go.

4 points
4
0
SicSemperTyrannis's picture

December 18, 2023 at 11:23 am

RCP,

MLF has more weaknesses as HC than that. His terrible clock management has ended GB seasons. With that duty, his playcalling suffers. He makes lousy choices evaluating players too, not just coaches.

An OC doesn't have to do any of that. As OC, MLF might be pretty good. If he had a HC that excelled at these things, and is good in other ways. (Toughness, culture of winning, and in-game adjustments)

2 points
2
0
LambeauPlain's picture

December 18, 2023 at 08:47 am

Murphy should retire a year early instead of being allowed to coast to his gold watch.

If the Packers Executive Board had any common sense and courage, they would be planning a grand Retirement Party for Murphy in the Atrium after the season.

My guess is timidity will continue to exist in the board room too.

5 points
5
0
T7Steve's picture

December 18, 2023 at 09:49 am

Unfortunately, I don't think the "Board" will hire outside of the organization. It's too inbred.

Unless whomever they pick goes ballistic on them, this problem is going to continue.

Maybe there's a retired high school coach on the board they can elevate, and that would be an improvement on Murphy. We can only keep our fingers crossed.

There's no GM worth his salt that would work under Murphy's style of control. Gute has performed well as a scout, but isn't a GM.

Along with this young team the front office has a long way to go.

2 points
2
0
NickPerry's picture

December 18, 2023 at 04:21 pm

I really REALLY hope this isn't the case Steve. I'm thinking the Ravens or 49ers would be great places to start. Personally I prefer the Ravens.

0 points
0
0
LLCHESTY's picture

December 18, 2023 at 12:35 pm

It's my understanding that Murphy won't step down until the summer of '25(his birthday is in July I believe) so any wholesale changes won't happen until the year after unless he steps down early. I'd imagine he'll want to be around for the draft also.

I think it will be a mess until the GM is given control back of the football operations. No quality perspective GM is going to want the job with the power structure that's in place.

1 points
1
0
fireball's picture

December 18, 2023 at 06:52 am

I said it yesterday: if Mayfield hooks up well with his receivers, the Packers lose. The Packers just ain't that good on pass/defense. They've mostly won some games because their opponents dropped too many key passes or because the Packers defense wasn't called for pass-interference.

The Packer defense, in general, just ain't that good.

3 points
3
0
Art's picture

December 18, 2023 at 09:11 am

A key to being a successful leader is surrounding yourself with talented people, make good hiring decisions and as harsh and as unpleasant as it is to terminate anyone, have the ability to replace those that are not performing to job requirements
MLF has failed in both.
How would you grade MLF as a head coach in other HC duties?
Having team ready to play each week?
making game adjustments?
clock management?
team discipline?
does he have support of the players?
In addition MLF has decided to be the play caller so how would you evaluate that?

MLF seems like a very nice guy, maybe to nice but does he have the ability to lead this team to a super bowl? That is the evaluation Packer mgmt must make.

Keep MLF as HC replace Barry with a new DC, hire a new OC, one with play calling ability to allow MLF to concentrate more on game situations and mgmt, new OL coach, revamp the strength and conditioning staff
or
Hire a new HC and staff

Since Murphy is leaving in 2025 and no good coach wants to be hired by an outgoing President, Its either keep MLF (with or without staff changes) thru 2024 or
choose Murphys replacement and allow him to be involved with new HC hire.

1 points
2
1
Thegreatreynoldo's picture

December 18, 2023 at 09:50 am

Agreed that LaFleur and Gutekunst will return for 2024 and that that is due to Murphy and the infelicity of being hired by an outgoing CEO. I think it is conceivable that Murphy might step out of the way after the 2024 season while retaining the CEO title through the draft, thus letting the new CEO (in all but name) select a new HC and/or GM, or keeping them both in place. Still seems likely that both would remain through 2025 as it probably would be awkward.

On the merits, I am reasonably happy with Gute. As for LaFleur, I have been more up and down on him. His teams have not been ready to play on trips west and in other games. I don't think he has enough contacts to form a really good staff or the discrimination to identify and recruit new position coaches of talent. I think his game plans have been both excellent and not very good. I thought that when Mike McCarthy turned his attention to special teams or defense, those units improved, at least temporarily, but that does not seem to be the case with LaFleur. I think he is he can do well with Xs and Os, less with his playcalling and game plans. His practices seem tame. I am concerned that the team is not physical. I liked playing Heath for example because this team needs some goons. Wahle like McDuffie but he like to hit, not to receive. Kind of neutral on LaFleur.

-1 points
0
1
SicSemperTyrannis's picture

December 18, 2023 at 11:31 am

TGR,

"discrimination to identify and recruit new position coaches of talent."

Well put! Major MLF weakness there. And that goes for players, too.

0 points
0
0
LLCHESTY's picture

December 18, 2023 at 01:32 pm

I've been harping on the team not being very physical for a few years. At least since getting road graded by the 49ers in 2019. I thought a hire like Flores might have pushed LaFleur to have more physical practices. Hopefully he hires someone out of his comfort zone this time.

It's interesting for being in a small, cold weather city they have for most of their existence been a passing team. Minus the Lombardi years and a few years in the 90's with White there haven't been many years of upper tier defenses since 1960.

0 points
0
0
SicSemperTyrannis's picture

December 18, 2023 at 11:28 am

I used to think that removing playcalling duties from MLF was the answer. I hoped for that immediately after last season. Now it seems evident that he's not a HC, but might be a pretty good OC.

0 points
0
0
stockholder's picture

December 18, 2023 at 07:01 am

If stokes and Ford are the answer.
The secondary will continue to get hammered

1 points
3
2
jannes bjornson's picture

December 18, 2023 at 09:29 am

Keep Gutey away from selecting any defensive player.

-1 points
1
2
stockholder's picture

December 18, 2023 at 09:53 am

Truthfully you're right.

The TEs last draft were considered its strength.
And Thats how he should go this draft.
Offensive Tackles are tops 1-35.

But I still would take a safety Rd. 2
with all those picks.
Just stay put in rd 2 and 3 if it's a early one.

What is really showing up is trading Douglass.
Could it be that the new guys and Rookies are listening to the coach.
And the veterans aren't?

0 points
1
1
jannes bjornson's picture

December 18, 2023 at 10:00 pm

WR and OTs are the strength of this draft. Get one of each in round One. A move up is in order this 2024 draft.
Score more points and get a CB to pair with Jaire. Valentine a nickel/dime guy at best. MOve some players in the deals, if necessary. We've seen enough from some of these impostors. No will was exhibited by these defensive players this past Sunday. No excuse for such defeatism from a defense.

0 points
0
0
tobinrote's picture

December 18, 2023 at 07:39 am

thanks TGR

from a fan who nails it

"Packers defense has allowed career games in the last two seasons to

Daniel Jones
Zach Wilson
Bailey Zappe
Taylor Heinke
Ryan Tannehill
Desmond Ritter
Kenny Pickett
Tommy Devito
Baker Mayfield"

last week we made DeVito look like Lamar Jackson; this week Mayfield as Joe Montana. i have been a season ticket holder if you tack on the years of my dad and me for 75 years. i am going to rethink the expense that i shell out for these utterly shoddy goods, bring back Harlan and Wolf from the grave if necessary

4 points
4
0
T7Steve's picture

December 18, 2023 at 07:56 am

Sad, sad, sad.

Anything close to a physical team makes this team wilt.

A team takes on the personality of the head coach. The assistants follow suit. They're such nice likable guys.

Wonder if they're losing the locker room?

If I was in that room, I'd be embarrassed to be pushed around and treated like a junior varsity version of a scrimmage practice.

Is that why guys like J. Alexander don't get activated or go to the sideline limping all the time?

Baker had a perfect QB rating? Who are we going to make shine next week in our get right game for the opposition?

2 points
2
0
LambeauPlain's picture

December 18, 2023 at 09:00 am

Barry Ball is getting national attention. The Packer Defense is branded as soft...disappears in games faster than cotton candy in a downpour.

I believe the Packer D players, knowing their talents are being ignored and misused, have quit on Barry. By quit, I mean being disgruntled and going through the motions. Instead of going full bore, just a few players on every snap throttling back a bit in disgust can ripple negatively all through the D to give up almost 500 yards.

How does this affect the Offense? When the D gives the opponent a lead...how do they respond?

Barry, like Capers before him, is a head coach's death wish.

2 points
2
0
SicSemperTyrannis's picture

December 18, 2023 at 11:46 am

LP,

in terms of "losing the locker room," this was my concern when Gutey gave Rasul Douglas away for nothing. A fifth round pick PLUS Rasul to move up about 40 spots for a third rounder; as bad as that is you then tell Rasul this was such a good offer you couldn't turn it down? Gutey told every player on the roster that no matter how well they play, they're worthless.

Pile that on top of how demoralizing it must be to play for JB.

2 points
2
0
SicSemperTyrannis's picture

December 18, 2023 at 11:35 am

Steve,

"Anything close to a physical team makes this team wilt."

That's the epitome of Monday morning over reaction. They still beat Detroit and KC. We can't even say they haven't played like that since, GB won some of their 1 on 1 matchups.

There's more to it.

0 points
0
0
TxFred's picture

December 18, 2023 at 09:20 am

Pack GM will be busy gutting & replacing the OLine.
OLine coach too. Teach & coach shoulder pad blocking. Basic & fundamental power blocking. Not this fucking entertainment "hugging & holding" crap.
Basic fucking blocking. Not a new concept. Get her done!!!!

-2 points
2
4
SicSemperTyrannis's picture

December 18, 2023 at 11:50 am

There are some HUGE guys who need to be evaluated this season: Mt Caleb, Telfort, and Tenuta. If Gutey doesn't know what they can do before the draft, MLF completely wasted those picks, not Gutey.

I wonder what the relationship between Gutey and MLF is these days?

-2 points
0
2
CheesedDeadHead's picture

December 18, 2023 at 10:20 am

"Myers had a couple of penalties and otherwise was not good, but he can play if necessary in the NFL. He has one more year to show consistency, as sometimes he can look very good. "

I always think Myers best look is when he's leaving the field. Yep. When he's getting off the field he looks the best.

1 points
1
0
Coldworld's picture

December 18, 2023 at 10:27 am

Myers is about to head into the last year of his contract. He’s never been more than adequate at best. Does anyone still think he’s the future? He gets a pass from many. Why?

1 points
1
0
SicSemperTyrannis's picture

December 18, 2023 at 11:58 am

He's had some good plays.

I still want a healthy Zach Tom at C, given enough time to adjust to the position. Jenkins at LG. Maybe we're seeing that neither JRJ or Rhyan are good enough at RG? Maybe Tom is better there if he gets beat by a rookie C if Gutey makes a great (and lucky) first round pick there?

Between Nijman, Walker, Mt Caleb, Telfort and Tenuta, there isn't one starting OT? This question need to be answered this season. The consensus opinion seems to be that GB has lost Nijman, and Bakh won't be back.

-1 points
0
1
LLCHESTY's picture

December 18, 2023 at 01:39 pm

Like this kid a lot of he's available in the 2nd round. OL needs some toughness.

https://youtu.be/SsldsSIl7Y4?si=zYL7wFO3Ee6crBue

0 points
0
0
SicSemperTyrannis's picture

December 18, 2023 at 11:01 am

I'm glad to see Rhyan and JRJ at a 50-50 split, just for assessment purposes. They could have done that weeks ago. If it's just a difference of who's having the better game, then there's no substantial difference between them.

Even though Zach Tom has been playing well, I think he's playing out of position. Why have so many guys 6'7" and + if Tom is at OT? I understand trying to develop Myers, but how many games has he cost this season? Playing Tom JRJ and Jenkins hurt with so much talent on the bench is just BAD coaching.

I like the choice of WRs to play, but Doubs was the hot hand and I would have liked to have seen him targeted more. I think Reed was less than 100% at opening kickoff, and got hurt during the game. Hopefully it's not serious. I'm curious if they were using Bo Melton in the MVS role? With #9 out, they should.

Thank you for the facts! Over reaction Monday is peaking, lol.

0 points
1
1
Ferrari-Driver's picture

December 18, 2023 at 11:52 am

Great rundown TGR. I generally like to keep my comments fairly clean, so instead I'll refer you to this link that TGR posted which is about as emotional as any I've ever heard: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/o3IN0ozziok

0 points
0
0
SicSemperTyrannis's picture

December 18, 2023 at 12:01 pm

TGR linked that in the article. Just imagine how frustrated the defensive players are!

0 points
0
0
PackerBO's picture

December 18, 2023 at 01:22 pm

Burks and Barry can go!! One thing to keep in mind about last year when the Packers went on a little run at the end of last year, was that the defense played well. Then you look at it and it was against sub 500 teams except for the Vikings. There also was a little player revolt and they wanted things simplified!!! Barry changed a little and won some games. Did Barry revert back to a complex cover scheme??? I don't know, but it sure seems like players are out of position a lot.
Thanks TRG for ALL the work that you do.

0 points
0
0
PackerBO's picture

December 18, 2023 at 01:23 pm

Butkus

0 points
0
0
Thegreatreynoldo's picture

December 19, 2023 at 01:40 am

Just a thought about the bio for Luke Butkus on some other team's coaching blurb:

"Luke took 4th round and 7th round draft picks in Zach Tom and Rasheed Walker and molded them into starting offensive tackles in the NFL."

PFF gave Rasheed Walker an elite 88.7 grade and a comfortably above average grade of 73.0 to Tom. [BTW, Jenkins got a nice 75.5 instant grade from PFF.] Myers (45.0) and Rhyan (47.5) were given terrible grades. No mention of Runyan and Nijman so they were between 55.2 and 72.9, a huge spread. Thus, PFF could have thought they were anything from below average to above average.

Tom has gotten consistent grades. He gets a good grade but not usually a really good grade and never below average. Rasheed has been ticking ever upwards as the season progresses. His season-long grade is solidly in the green at 69.5 now. [Nijman is at 62.8 for the year. That's where I have always rated him: okay but I'd like considerably better.] Do we need to draft that top first round LT prospect? Does Rasheed have more ceiling left?

As to Butkus, Zach Tom as a rookie came in with good technique, great balance and very good feet. Sorry, I am not ascribing any of his progress to Butkus. I think Tom gained 15 pounds (which he said he did) and added some muscle and just was able to be a professional. Rasheed has great size and looked very good in preseason games during his rookie year. I could ascribe Rasheed's growth to Butkus or to just to being a pro for a year. Or some of both. I love the little bios teams publish for their coaches. They all are great if you believe them.

0 points
0
0