Cory's Corner: It All Starts Up Front
The unit that will decide if the Packers can be surprisingly good this year is the offensive line.
There are many people that are worried about the Packers offensive line, but don’t count me as one of them.
If there’s one thing that general manager Brian Gutekunst has proven he can do very well, it’s assembling plenty of value on the offensive line.
The Packers have one of the most versatile offensive lines led by left tackle David Bakhtiari. And even if the soon-to-be 32-year-old All-Pro doesn’t make it through all 17 games, the Packers are deep enough to make it work.
Yosh Nijman, Royce Newman and Jake Hanson have all started at least one game — and the entire trio will likely begin the season on the bench.
Elgton Jenkins has proven his versatile value and Zach Tom is arguably one of the best up and comers on the Packers roster after playing in nine games as a rookie last year. Tom raised eyebrows by showing plenty of athleticism and power that exceeded his fourth round pick.
Josh Myers is the perfect complement for a new quarterback. Entering his third year at center, he improved his pass blocking and allowed eight hurries in 643 pass blocking snaps last year.
The two things a green quarterback needs are assurance and confidence. A solid offensive line can satisfy both. While everyone is concerned about the running game, young wideouts and whether or not Matt LaFleur’s system will prove successful, the ‘Big Uglies’ up front are the most important equation in the Packers offense.
The moment Jordan Love gets comfortable in what he can do and with this offense is the moment the Packers can be a scary football team. The only way that happens is if the offensive line gives him plenty of time and keeps him upright for the most part.
Which is great, because we’re about to see Love’s best shot as a starting quarterback. I am looking forward to seeing what his ceiling might be, but I wouldn’t want to see it if he was constantly getting harassed and having to look over his shoulder all the time.
The Packers were able to move forward with the Aaron Rodgers trade simply because they were confident in the offensive line. If there was any suspicion of doubt, there’s no sense in giving the keys to an unproven starter.
So while everyone else is focused on offensive weapons, the Packers continue to be deep at the most underrated position in football.
And if the Packers are a success this year, it starts there.
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Cory Jennerjohn is a graduate from UW-Oshkosh and has been in sports media for over 15 years. He was a co-host on "Clubhouse Live" and has also done various radio and TV work as well. He has written for newspapers, magazines and websites. He currently is a columnist for CHTV and also does various podcasts. He recently earned his Masters degree from the University of Iowa. He can be found on Twitter: @Coryjennerjohn
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Comments (115)
NickPerry
May 16, 2023 at 06:21 am
"Josh Myers is the perfect complement for a new quarterback. Entering his third year at center, he improved his pass blocking and allowed eight hurries in 643 pass blocking snaps last year."
I wouldn't be surprised if Zack Tom didn't push Meyers for the starting Center position. Gute thought Center could very well be Tom's best position. I'd imagine if Nijman is the RT then Tom becomes probably the back-up to EVERY O-Line position...Sort of a super 6th man. But if it's REALLY about your best five, Tom beating out Meyers wouldn't surprise me a bit.
PLEASE...Lets HOPE we don't have to see Hanson or Newman play a single snap this year. If that turns out to be the case, the Packers will be in EXCELLENT shape on the O-Line.
HawkPacker
May 16, 2023 at 06:50 am
It would be great and a bit surprising to see Sean Rhyan take a big step as well.
T7Steve
May 16, 2023 at 07:51 am
Tom pushing Meyers is what we need. I think last season even, he was settled in as a starter even after his injury plagued rookie season.
Caleb Jones pushing Nijman is great too. Still want to see those two huge men together on a goal line/short yardage offense.
Guam
May 16, 2023 at 08:20 am
Not sure why the author believes Nijman will be on the bench. The Packers chose to start an injured Nijman (shoulder) over a healthy Tom for the last game of the year (Detroit) which is a pretty clear indication of who they believe is better at RT. Maybe Tom makes a second year jump, but like you NP, I think the Packers would be better served having Tom replace Myers than Nijman.
I will be watching the preseason closely to see how Rhyan, Walker, Jones and Tenuta are playing. The Packers need at least one reserve tackle to step up and be ready to play. I doubt we go through the entire year without injury and one of them will be needed.
dobber
May 16, 2023 at 10:02 am
In this four-year sample, the coaching staff has demonstrated a tendency in bigger games to play vets (out of position or coming off injuries) over younger guys on the OL.
A lot with Tom will have to do with how much strength he's acquired this off-season.
My relatively uninformed opinion is that they have planned that one of these young OTs (Tom, Nijman, Walker, Jones) is their starting RT in 2023. The draft seems to back that up. I'll be curious how they use Walker in minicamps and once camp opens in July.
Coldworld
May 16, 2023 at 10:19 am
To be honest, while Jones could have still been suffering that legacy of Mano, I’m not sure why we didn’t have Walker active, even if we started Tom. To be honest, RT is perhaps the least obvious fit for Tom, Walker played there all year apparently. A one armed T is a bad proposition whoever the T is.
Was that coaching or Rodgers or both? Was it the seeming fear of playing new players unless forced that we saw through the season? I did note that they still used Nijman on STs, even when he had to come out on O. Surely not great planning since he was known to be dubious to play in both games. Just another odd decision in a year of many on the OL.
dblbogey
May 16, 2023 at 01:16 pm
They also quickly replaced Nijman with Zach Tom in that game. Nijman is a quality back up LT. That's about it.
Coldworld
May 16, 2023 at 09:47 am
Meyers has been a big disappointment. He’s neither physically imposed or shown the ability to be consistent in blocking or protection. He flashes, but that’s not enough. This is a big year for him. If he doesn’t grab it and show that it has all clicked he will start his way out of the door.
I would love to see Jenkins replace him in theory, but I don’t see an option that for G that isn’t a bigger step back, whereas I think Tom could be an equally good option at C. Now if Rhyan or someone else really takes a step then we have a much better set of options.
I do not like our OL interior depth. I’m far more dubious about that than at T. I’m hoping one of Rhyan, Newman, Delance or Filiaga, maybe even Tenuta if he’s not too tall, changes that, but it might take a veteran signing. I can’t see Hanson taking the enormous both physical and mental leaps necessary at this point.
greengold
May 16, 2023 at 10:09 am
I think this year we will see other players challenging, especially at all 3 iOL positions.
Since the Lombardi days, the best OG starter pairing in Green Bay IMO were Josh Sutton and TJ Lang. Both players were OTs who converted to OGs.
Elton Jenkins is best at OG, and Runyan's "just OK" status has actually hurt this team's rushing attack.
PFF gave Runyan a 53.6 Run Blocking Grade in 2022. In 2021 it was 58.6. In 2020 it was 55.8.
Conversely, Elton Jenkins Run Blocking Grades were 71.8 in 2022, 76.4 in 2021, 62.3 in 2020 (his lowest figure since being drafted in 2019 - he did take almost 300 snaps at C in 2020).
Coldworld
May 16, 2023 at 10:36 am
Jenkins is a very capable C, but there’s no doubt he’s a far better G than any other we have, if that’s what you are saying. That’s why I wouldn’t move him, but move Tom for now. Tom started at C in college and was thought to project there when drafted. Get your best 5 out there, if healthy, that’s Bakh, Jenkins, Tom, Runyon, Nijman for me by some way until another player proves otherwise.
Runyon needs to add strength I agree. He’s definitely a weak link in the run game. However, while Newman isn’t, his protection issue far outweighs that. Time for Rhyan or someone to beat him out if they can.
I think we see Walker at RT and Jones at LT behind those guys to start out, but Tenuta is a possible option though his short arms and relative immobility together cause me to doubt. Telfort looks like a RT too to me at this point. Delance has great arm length, but I see him as a G at this level otherwise despite that, but he, like Tenuta could be a wild card whom they disagree with me on. Filiaga is a G. Not mobile, but tough and strong, but his protection ability and ability to get to the next level are questions at this point.
greengold
May 16, 2023 at 11:12 am
Yes, you understood me through my own misgivings...! LOL.I do try.
idk. Runyan is in the last year of his deal. Maybe he simply loses his starting gig to another challenger.
----
Nobody wants to touch this with a 10 ft. pole (trust me, I've known the down votes intimately on the subject), but I do wonder if Bakhtiari gets traded in 17 days? Everybody here & their brother knows the destination, but are unwilling to talk about the possibility.
To me, AND I DO NOT WANT HIM TRADED, it just looks plain as day. The way his contract is currently structured, trading him next year will cost the Packers more in terms of dead cap.
How much do we really benefit squeezing another year out of David Bakhtiari, vs. trading him now at his highest trade value, bringing the Packers the highest return?
Is the love for the player so great that we can't discuss it like adults? (Not directed at you, Coldworld, just in general)
mnbadger
May 16, 2023 at 12:18 pm
I've brought this up before as well, downvoted by more than 2 to 1.
I still think it makes sense on some level - too soon is always better than too late. We seem to have alot of large, strong athletic options on the outside.
If this year is development year, let's develop a young and aggressive offensive line.
GPG!
greengold
May 16, 2023 at 12:48 pm
mnbadger, I've seen your mentions on this. It's like a giant elephant, waving, in the room~!
I agree with you. I've never bought that we have Bakhtiari this season, and I'll believe it when I see it. The math doesn't work on it, at all. (Sorry, Nags!)
The way I've been envisioning this is Yosh takes over LT and any number of Rasheed Walker, Caleb Jones, Sean Rhyan, Kadeem Telfort, Luke Tenuta or maybe another FA OT they sign with the $4M the Packers save this year in trading Bak, challenges for RT.
I've been thinking Rasheed Walker wins that RT starting spot. Reason #1 is he's an explosive Tackle with great speed. Rasheed ran a 5.12 40, a speed landing him in the 78th percentile. He's got heavy hands too. If he's been taking to NFL coaching this entire past year, he could wind up being something special.
Walker is able to get to the 2nd level and just destroy with that speed and size. Smooth. Agile. Explosive. Heavy 10 5/8" hands. Practically bull rush proof. A very willing 2nd level blocker too with awesome straight line speed. Talk about a freight train!
PatB
May 16, 2023 at 01:32 pm
I think you are mistaken about Bakhtiari's contract. Trading him this year would incur a $38M dead money charge, which is a $17M cap cost compared to keeping him. The Packers cannot afford that. Trading him next year will incur a $19M dead money charge, which will be a $21M cap savings compared to keeping him.
In general, dead money is a combination of outstanding guarantees and prorated signing bonus. It does not increase from year to year unless the contract is restructured or renegotiated.
I expect the Packers to trade him next year. The other possibility is extend him in a way that reduces his 2024 cap number.
EDIT: maybe you're looking at the post-June 1 trade numbers, but if they go that route, then they take a $19M dead cap charge this year and another $19M dead cap charge next year (which OTC's format omits). That's almost no savings compared to keeping him this year and trading him next year. I don't see that happening unless they feel extremely confident about the other options at OT.
Coldworld
May 16, 2023 at 01:51 pm
I was very much on the fence about retaining Bakh despite him being our best OL. The restructure answered that till June 2. Realistically, it’s quite possible, though I think the plan maybe to give one more year for development of others and then do so. The chances of Bakh being here in 2025 are poor in my view, so it’s a question of options and offers I suspect.
T7Steve
May 16, 2023 at 12:55 pm
The thing that Runyan has going for him while he's getting better is that he doesn't get penalties.
LambeauPlain
May 16, 2023 at 11:50 am
I agree with you Nick. I think Myers is the weakest link in the OL chain of Bak, Jenks, Yosh, Tom and Runyan.
CHTV's Gil Martin rated the O line after the season and he validated what I saw in Myers. His pass pro improved mid season but his run blocking remained average at best. Runyan is also better at pass pro than run blocking.
A prolific run game with this line and these RBs is essential post Rodgers.
I hope the "best five" start. MLF gives lip service to this but doesn't adhere to it.
After a rigorous camp, I can see the best five left to right being Bak, Jenks, Tom, Winner between Myers/Runyan, Yosh. But let a full camp competition occur.
T7Steve
May 16, 2023 at 01:27 pm
I wonder how switching to the right effected Runyan after playing exclusively on the left the prior year too. Even in high school, I balked at switching sides when my coach wanted to try it. And I was a great athlete. LOL. Almost made third team All Stambaugh Township.
Also, I noticed the line calls Meyers missed when teams started stunting. Was it the Giants that first started stunting the whole game? Double team to the right side and let someone come through untouched. Anyway, after it started the rest of our opponents all jumped on the band wagon. Till it gets stopped it will continue this season too.
Tundraboy
May 16, 2023 at 09:48 pm
NPs back!
PackEyedOptimist
May 16, 2023 at 06:48 am
I agree Cory; the other most-important element for supporting Love is going to be avoiding dropped passes. Nothing breaks a QB’s confidence more than being sacked or having a receiver drop a pass.
PeteK
May 16, 2023 at 08:48 am
As good as they were last year, an even better running attack could also be of great help.
The_Baloney_Stops_Here
May 16, 2023 at 10:11 pm
Drops are gonna happen. Its just part of the game. It aint just the Packers either. Here's the top 11 teams with the most drops:
1) Packers- 30
2) Bills- 29
2) Bucs- 29
2) Jags- 29
5) Dolphins- 27
5) Giants- 27
7) Chiefs- 26
8) Chargers- 25
9) Bengals- 24
9) Browns- 24
11) Cowboys- 23
Notice a pattern? 9 of these 11 teams still had great passing attacks and overcame the drops to make playoffs. Im not worried about it. I'm more worried about this team ignoring Aaron Jones on the goalline or throwing 40 yd bombs on 3rd and 1. Thats the crap that caused this team to miss playoffs, not the drops.
Since'61
May 17, 2023 at 12:48 pm
If you are posting about 2022 the Packers had 41 dropped passes in 2022. Thanks, Since '61
greengold
May 16, 2023 at 06:55 am
My license plate says, ASSMAN, so, for me it all starts in the back.
Like, back of roster...
OT Jean Delance - Florida
6-4 303
OG Chuck Filaga - Minnesota
6-6 322
OT Caleb Jones - Indiana
6-9 371
OT/OG Sean Rhyan - UCLA
6-5 321
OT Kadeem Telfort - UAB
6-7 322
OT Luke Tenuta - Virginia Tech
6-8 314
OT Rasheed Walker - Georgia
6-6 324
None of these guys were mentioned. There's competition there. None of us knows how some of these players have progressed in their development, what positions they might be challenging for, etc. but, it will be interesting to find out.
I do find the fact that Gutekunst mentioned Zach Tom's best position is Center to be compelling. I also wonder about Bakhtiari, just because of the math involved with his cap numbers, and his being the only extension to not include VOID years. Why? Will he be traded in 17 days?*
*Asking the question does not mean I want him traded.
It's a question that begs for an answer. $38.2M dead cap charge drops to $16.8M in 17 days. Bakhtiari's cap number for 2024 = $40.6M.
???
Bakhtiari's Prorated Bonus for 2024 = $19.08M. His base salary on top of that is $20.2M.
These are questions worth asking.
Johnblood27
May 16, 2023 at 07:44 am
The comment about nothing...
Helloooooo Greengold...
greengold
May 16, 2023 at 08:53 am
Good morning, Johnblood! I just fixed it... and, I'd never say that's about "nothing." It's always about somethin'...
Johnblood27
May 17, 2023 at 09:52 pm
That was a Seinfeld reference...
greengold
May 18, 2023 at 06:48 am
And, it was solid.
I just need to clean my act up, somehow, without soaking in a tepid pool of my own filth.
rumdog11
May 16, 2023 at 09:38 am
The backup tackle situation is very interesting. Loved Wallace coming out of the draft, especially where they were able to get him. Jones could be the next Yosh and, from what I understand, Tenuta is performing the best of the three. Also, can't wait to see what Rhyan does this camp. Is he a complete bust or did he just need a year to get his act together.
BruceC1960
May 16, 2023 at 10:24 am
I would be surprised to see Bakhtiari traded this year. Would have been more like if we had drafted an O-linemen this year. Seems like we would be a little thin without Bakhtiari and still having Newman and Hanson still on the roster.
SoCalJim
May 16, 2023 at 10:59 am
Bakhtiari’s cap number for 2024 is $40M. I think from a financial point of view, the team’s ability to work within the cap is going to be challenging. I expect the Packers will probably trade him this season, or cut him before next season. I prefer he stayed on, but if the Packers FO can’t make the 2024 cap numbers work, a trade that gets us something for Bakhtiari is better than cutting him and getting nothing.
greengold
May 16, 2023 at 11:22 am
Exactly, SoCalJim!!!
I've been trying to communicate that for months. I fucking love the guy! BUT, the numbers are pretty much screaming TRADE ME NOW!!! That's what I get and have gotten since looking at his last extension.
The OTC numbers are very clear.
What made me even more suspicious he might be traded in about 17 days to NYJ is his extension was the ONLY ONE that didn't include VOID years, out of all the extensions written to clear dead cap for the AR trade.
That's too funky to not make mention of to my friends here, and I got flamed by 1000 flame throwers, without wearing my fire retardant suit!!!
(Bugs Bunny figure all clad in black smoldering soot, eyes blinking...)
SoCalJim
May 16, 2023 at 01:19 pm
It sure looks like the FO is positioning themselves to make a trade with DB, but it has to be worth it. The OLine might not be quite as solid as they’d like to start out JLove’s inaugural season as QB1. Whatever they do, JLove needs a dependable OLine. I hope it works out!
jannesbjornson
May 16, 2023 at 08:08 pm
He goes and Love goes to the IR.
mnbadger
May 16, 2023 at 12:22 pm
trade DBakh, cut newman, yesterday. Hanson later during cutdowns.
Sorry Royce, that's as soft as I can dance around that statement!
GPG!
Guam
May 16, 2023 at 05:29 pm
GG: I think Walker is from Penn State, not Georgia.
SicSemperTyrannis
May 17, 2023 at 12:24 am
GG: yes the depth needs to be in the "draft and develop" mode we hear so much about. Real competition also gets everybody prepared, and that's the name of the game. Hopefully MLF has the best men up front and they give 100% effort every down. Do that all season and I can live with whatever results this year.
ReaganRulz
May 16, 2023 at 07:08 am
Agree with your article Cory. There is still a bit of shuffling going on but it’s nice to have players that can be shuffled. Having a fully healthy Bak and Jenkins will be a huge plus this year.
GregC
May 16, 2023 at 07:11 am
This is basically an average offensive line. They have depth, but beyond Bahktiari and Jenkins, they are ordinary at best. This is the line that got manhandled by the Detroit Lions in a home game at the end of last season, with a playoff berth at stake. And the Lions aren't particularly strong up front.
Having Jake Hanson and Royce Newman coming off the bench does not seem like a plus to me. They're bad players. And it's news to me that Yosh Nijman is likely to start the season coming off the bench. I thought he was penciled in as the starting right tackle. He's not very good either. Against the Lions, he got pulled from the game early and replaced by Zach Tom. I'm not sure how Tom played, but the line as a whole continued to struggle. For whatever reason, Nijman seems to feel at home playing LT but has been up and down at RT.
There is hope for this line to become better than average, though. Obviously, Bahktiari and Jenkins need to stay healthy. Maybe Josh Myers finally puts it all together, and if he doesn't, maybe Zach Tom beats him out. Jon Runyan is young, and maybe he improves or gets beaten out by a better player. And maybe Nijman settles in at right tackle or gets beaten out by Tom. That's a lot of maybes. I'm expecting the Packers to draft an OT in the first round next year, or at least the second round.
T7Steve
May 16, 2023 at 08:00 am
Nijman was playing with a bad shoulder the last couple games. Probably shouldn't have played. Before that he did excellent and also graded very well when he played the left side for DB. I think the most important thing is for the best five to be decided before camp is over so that they'll have time to jell together this season.
Did seem like the whole line got pushed around too much last year. Can't stand that!
GregC
May 16, 2023 at 10:24 am
I hadn't heard about an injury. It's good if that's the reason he was pulled.
Coldworld
May 16, 2023 at 10:57 am
Nijman had to come out of the Dolphins game with a shoulder injury. He was visibly favoring it after missing practice in both subsequent weeks. I have been told he reinjured it in the Vikings game early, but whether that’s true or not, I can’t verify it. The Packers placed a second round tender on him for a reason. He’s not intended to back up as suggested here.
Nijman had rated very well at LT. He had some issues mirroring his technique to the right, but had been improving. A summer there will help that significantly I believe. At the time they delayed giving him practice time at RT because they thought he might struggle to transition, then threw him in anyway. Another baffling piece of coaching wisdom and planning.
Regardless who plays, the personnel decisions and plan on OL were baffling to outright negligent last year, going back to the Championship game really. That can not be repeated this year. Barry may be the most obvious issue in LaFleur’s staff, but Luke Butkus may be just as worthy of doubt and scrutiny. He was a flat out liability in hindsight.
T7Steve
May 16, 2023 at 12:39 pm
Something about having a Butkus on the Packer staff. It's like sleeping with the enemy.
PeteK
May 16, 2023 at 09:00 am
Nijman and Runyan switched from the left to right side which can hamper timing. They should all be settled in veterans by Sept, and could easily be the best O line in the division.
dobber
May 16, 2023 at 10:18 am
"There is hope for this line to become better than average, though. "
In aggregate, the OL was something like 8th in pass blocking in 2022. We know there were stretches where they were getting their heads handed to them, but that means that when they weren't, they were well above average with their 1's in pass blocking in 2022. Every member of that group is back in 2023.
GregC
May 16, 2023 at 10:25 am
Do you know where they were ranked in run blocking?
Coldworld
May 16, 2023 at 11:08 am
ESPN had Josh Nijman rated as the best run blocking OT in football last year. Jenkins rated 8th at G. No other Packers player made the run blocking top 10.
Overall, our run blocking was rated 8th, with a win rate of 72%.
ESPN had us 6th in pass blocking. Bakh was the 2nd best rated T. No other Packer player was in the top 10, though Nijman was prior to Bakh relegating him to the bench and then moving him to RT.
There’s a lot of false perceptions about Nijman and about the blocking generally. Statistically it was not nearly as bad. The problem was that LaFleur’s O invited pressure in spades and stacked boxes and the first ten yards. Despite a significant number of seemingly hare brained decisions and injuries, the OL is statistically not the excuse for Rodgers or LaFleur many claim.
I know that goes against the fashionable narrative here, but ESPN’s metrics are broadly in line with others’. This OL is, and was, better over the season despite coaching hinderance. The offense was not.
LambeauPlain
May 16, 2023 at 12:04 pm
Yosh was an incredibly athletic big man recruited as a DL enrolling at VA Tech. He immediately switched to LT and learned on the go. By his last season he was very good but still viewed too raw to be drafted.
Great UDFA for the Pack. His strength and agility is amazing for 6'8" 325 lb man who ran a 4.88. His feet are not as nimble as Tom's but good enough in pass pro. But he is an Abrams Tank in run blocking.
The Packers seem to feel the same as you point out, CW. You don't put a 2nd round tender on a backup.
greengold
May 16, 2023 at 12:32 pm
LP, do you know why teams were scared off of Yosh Nijman? When he was young, he outgrew his bone structure, and required titanium rods to be inserted in his legs to better carry the weight of his ever growing frame.
True. That's why he wasn't drafted, and Gutekunst knew this and pounced in UDFA to sign him. It certainly didn't adversely affect his play, nor the combine, because he slaughtered the combine in 2019.
VT HC Frank Beamer had no problem with that, starting Yosh 2 years at RT and 2 years at LT. he started all 4 years at Virginia Tech, giving up just 1 sack in that 4 year career. Yosh is quite a story.
T7Steve
May 16, 2023 at 12:45 pm
I'll say again, I would love to see him blocking in a short yardage situation next to Caleb Jones.
Who could stop that tandem?
greengold
May 16, 2023 at 01:03 pm
Steve!!! 100%
You wanna hear something freaky I was thinking about after learning the NFL is allowing those ridiculous rugby scrums on QB sneaks?
I was thinking we should have our big fellas at OT/OG practice stopping that as defenders...
Yeah. That would be worthy. I could see those players knocking that shit back! Easy!!!
GregC
May 16, 2023 at 02:19 pm
I give you my word that my opinion is based on observation rather than an attempt to be "fashionable." I'm not sure why you see my opinion as fashionable anyway, considering that most fans appear to agree with you that our OL is pretty good. I've soured on the O-line after watching them play poorly in elimination games to end each of the last three seasons. For the first two, important players were missing. For the one last year, they were close to full strength and still couldn't get the job done. The OL seems to be good enough to make it through the season only to falter when it matters most.
The_Baloney_Stops_Here
May 16, 2023 at 01:42 pm
Yeah their runblocking wasnt great cuz Rodgers spent half the season spamming shotgun inside zone rpo plays where Dillon would run right up the middle into a pile play after play. Once they started attacking outside, the run game was amazing. I suspect we will seee very little inside zone rpo's or even shotgun runs anymore. This team is going to live under center where the defense has to defend the entire field.
The_Baloney_Stops_Here
May 16, 2023 at 01:39 pm
You cant just write off 2 all-pro caliber players like that tho. Few teams even have 1 all-pro lineman. Packers have 2. That matters. And they have depth as they're returning all 5 starters plus 3 draft picks from last year. Barring injury, this is a top 5 oline and will be the engine for a resurgent offense this year.
SicSemperTyrannis
May 17, 2023 at 12:30 am
There's tons of talent. Will MLF let merit decide the roster? Will they show up every down with 100% effort? And prepared?
None of that happened last year so I don't see how any evaluation can be relevant, except coaching failures.
Bure9620
May 16, 2023 at 07:22 am
100% Everything starts up front. O-line is the biggest concern imo. If they stay healthy and play well, we move the ball. Hopefully, Zac Tom is a starter.
PackEyedOptimist
May 16, 2023 at 07:29 am
One of my concerns about this OL, is that it has seemed built for pass blocking, yet people keep hoping we’ll have a better running game because we have good RBs. Against aggressive defenses, our OL has really struggled to run block. I was half- hoping we’d see a change in that Rodgers-centric OL approach, in this draft: maybe a couple stellar run blockers? Didn’t happen.
jont
May 16, 2023 at 08:51 am
It sure looks like a premium is placed on pass blocking-- understandable in today's NFL-- but with GB it seems to me that mobility is a big factor in selecting guys for the OL. They've got to have good feet to protect the QB, but can they pull outside well, move quickly enough for a reach block, slide smoothly on outside zone runs?
dobber
May 16, 2023 at 10:19 am
They run a lot of wide zone, which means your OL need to move.
greengold
May 16, 2023 at 09:32 am
Bravo, PEO!
This is one of many great comments in here. Our run blocking grades...
Overall GB was the #3 Ranked OL according to Football Outsiders. However, our Power Success Ranking in the run game was #17. Our Overall Power Ranking in the run game is #18 in the NFL.
Our Pass Blocking Rank was #6 in the NFL, #7 Ranking in sacks allowed with 32 on the season.
I do believe there is improvement to be made in the Packers run blocking, and it may come from some of the newer players challenging for starting positions.
dobber
May 16, 2023 at 10:20 am
Thanks for finding these numbers GG.
greengold
May 16, 2023 at 10:41 am
No probs. Let me know if there's some other figures you're interested in knowing.
Directional OL stats in 411 carries:
Left End Ranking #14
Left Tackle Ranking #17
Mid/Guard Ranking #2 (45% frequency)
Right Tackle Ranking #3
Right End Ranking #8
***We were about a full yard better in Adjusted Line Yards rushing to the right side in 2022.
Coldworld
May 16, 2023 at 11:32 am
Newman was brought in for his ability in the run game. Unfortunately his issues in protection have thus far negated that. Myers too was supposedly good, and does pull well at times. However, overall he’s been a disappointment. Rhyan too is supposedly a plus run blocking prospect.
They have been trying, but I think that ability and a dichotomy between the Rodgers offense and their strengths has undermined progress in addition to the visible weaknesses of the players picked thus far.
Tenuta, Caleb Jones, Walker, Telfort and Filiaga also appear to offer run blocking upsides. There’s some effort underway at least. Other than Tom, we are not picking up finesse types.
greengold
May 16, 2023 at 11:53 am
hahaha! I couldn't have said this better, myself! Well said, Coldworld.
All we need is a QB willing to hand the ball off to the RB...
Yeah, the landscape is changing rapidly in GB, and our OL is not immune. Where pass blocking is concerned, I think another factor comes into play, which is a young QB1, with legs, able to throw from any platform, with a quick release.
Altogether, that should take some pressure off young OL getting their pass blocking chops down to start the new era.
I hope like hell LaFleur opens up a plan to lay waste to unsuspecting opponents with a 3 headed monster attack at RB with Jones, Dillon & Nichols.
Gutekunst drafted Lew Nichols III, taught by the same RB Coach who taught Aaron Jones. Lew's being a total and complete high volume workhorse helps. In 2021 Nichols had 1848 yds, 16 TDs, a 5.4 ypc average, and caught 40 passes for another 338 yds.
Coldworld
May 16, 2023 at 12:00 pm
More runs from under C will not only help Dillon, but the OL too.
greengold
May 16, 2023 at 12:07 pm
hahaha! Yeah, man!!!
There is so much to like with the Packers just piling up a bunch of young maulers up front and wearing opposing defenses out.
You KNOW what's going to happen in play action!!!! OMG!!!
Meanwhile, the clock spins, the game moves faster, the Packers can stay on the field moving chains, shredding clock, all the while giving our D a blow. Guessing those will be much needed too, as the Packers are LOADED with home run hitters. We should be able to score fast, but, we won't want to wear out our own D by trotting them back onto the field without the rest long sustained drives brings.
I think this young offense is going to score a ton, forcing teams to pass endlessly to catch up. This is one point that makes me extremely happy we added all the pass rush we did in April.
"To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill."
— Sun Tzu
Johnblood27
May 20, 2023 at 10:24 pm
He must have been from Wuhan...
SicSemperTyrannis
May 17, 2023 at 12:36 am
Coaching setting up real competition is also preparation. Letting merit determine the roster is needed and probably has been lacking. I don't see a lack of talent, but that "draft and develop" thing has to really function here on out.
Johnblood27
May 16, 2023 at 07:47 am
"Yosh Nijman, Royce Newman and Jake Hanson have all started at least one game — and the entire trio will likely begin the season on the bench. "
In a perfect world Newman and Hanson would be on another team's bench...
dobber
May 16, 2023 at 10:21 am
Newman is starting to remind me a lot of Don Barclay.
Johnblood27
May 20, 2023 at 10:24 pm
...or Alan Barbre...
PatrickGB
May 16, 2023 at 07:47 am
I think that not constantly changing the calls at the line might help as will keeping the best five in the lineup game after game. Matt’s offense is the “illusion” of complexity. That means it’s just basic stuff that only looks complex. The young linemen will have time to improve and the vets will stay where they are.
The_Baloney_Stops_Here
May 16, 2023 at 08:37 am
Yes and no. Its still a highly complex offense thats difficult to run. What was meant by "Illusion of complexity" is that a big chunk of plays are meant to look the same off the snap i.e. guys all taking the same first step or 2 whether its a run or playaction pass. And then when you add in the different motions, this offense becomes incredibly hard for defenses to attack, especially when this offense stays ahead of the sticks and can stick to their gamescript.
Handsback
May 16, 2023 at 07:51 am
Agree with you Cory, it all starts up front. Bak and Jenkins missing the start last year and set the team behind the 8 ball. There will be injuries, but the core and Tom make a solid unit that can make Love’s first season one to remember. My hope is that their capabilities will shine with MLF’s offense making the run game set up the passing game. Dictating the game to the defense verses reacting to what the defense does. At least it’s my hope.
Just MHO
1966-Guy
May 16, 2023 at 08:21 am
I think Newman and Hanson drink too much Bud Light. They should be on the Vikings team.
The_Baloney_Stops_Here
May 16, 2023 at 08:31 am
Im not ready to give up on Newman just yet. He still has really good athletic ability. Reminds me of TJ Lang, who looked awful till his 3rd year. Hopefully Newman follows course and turns the corner this year. Every player's development is different and they're often non-linear.
PeteK
May 16, 2023 at 09:05 am
Young veterans with game experience on the bench is better than rookies without the aforementioned.
Coldworld
May 16, 2023 at 11:42 am
Newman’s problem certainly isn’t in the run game. Actually, if he reads it right, he’s good in pass pro. I was shocked when they played him a T. Yes, he’s athletic, but not laterally. His profile is a guy with elite burst to get out ahead in the run game.
However, of all returning players last year, he was the one who needed snaps at one position most. If his recognition improves he’s an NFL player, perhaps a very good one. So we move him to T and he regressed when returned from where he had been firing the latter part of the prior year. I said at the time I thought that was #%^% stupid. In retrospect that was an understatement.
The_Baloney_Stops_Here
May 16, 2023 at 08:27 am
Yeah I dont really understand the angst about the oline. They return their entire starting 5 from last year, all of whom finished last season relatively healthy. Plus they still have Newman and the 3 draft picks from last year. Barring a string of injuries, this oline should be one of the best in the league like it always is.
T7Steve
May 16, 2023 at 08:28 am
I hope having an established line and less audibles will allow them to get off the ball with more than 2 seconds left on the play clock. LOL.
Imagine what snapping the ball every 30 seconds can do to a defensive line rotation and how they feel late in the 4th quarter.
ricky
May 16, 2023 at 08:29 am
Bakhtiari was also chosen in the fourth round. Draft position doesn't guarantee a good player. Though it does increase the odds. But, as you noted, the Packers have been very good at finding late round talent. Then again, they once had a terrific OL coach in Stenavich, We'll see if Butkus has learned how to develop talent.
PeteK
May 16, 2023 at 09:08 am
I'm sure Stenavich as the offensive coordinator still has his input into line coaching.
Coldworld
May 16, 2023 at 11:53 am
Last season the word was that he really wasn’t very involved and was focusing on learning OC.
Untylu1968
May 16, 2023 at 08:34 am
I know it's been brought up before, but you can't tell me that having old#12 run the play clock down on every single fricking snap, doesn't give the D-line the upper hand! I'd like to hear the O-lines take, on how it affects them and how they felt about it..
greengold
May 16, 2023 at 09:36 am
Yeah, and, I don't think we'll be seeing that at all with JL. Love gets that ball snapped quickly, and fired out to his target like lightening.
Some defenses won't be ready for that. They've been lulled into thinking playing the Packers means that they have to wait out snap counts. That conditioning through years of play could work in the Packers favor with JL.
Untylu1968
May 16, 2023 at 09:48 am
Totally agree, and my dog will appreciate a lot less screaming at the TV, SNAP THE F-ING BALL!!!😁
SicSemperTyrannis
May 17, 2023 at 12:45 am
Clock management should mean a combination of hurry up / no huddle and trying to get the opposing defense offsides. Peyton Manning did that well, hopefully JL saw this need on his own. The predictability was painful to watch.
Coldworld
May 16, 2023 at 11:59 am
When teams feel free to stack the box, indeed the whole first ten yards, I think you can take it as read. Going in last year with the offensive plan that we had was a vicious cycle. Short routes, lack of speed, and runs into the same crowded areas that most passes went to with only one deep threat for the occasional long pass just invites stagnation and more and more pressure on the OL. Doomed from the start. The only question is why we ended up with that strategy and stuck with it.
HarryHodag
May 16, 2023 at 08:37 am
Here's something else offensive linemen do: they open holes for the Packers two outstanding running backs to run through. It's not all pass...pass...pass.
The changes in NFL rules opened up the passing game, but in my early football years the pass was secondary to the run. I remember Taylor and Hornung and Brockington and Lane. Running backs who dominated the offensive production. A good offensive line should be able to produce at least one 1,000 yard rusher. That running game will take a lot of pressure off Jordan Love. Love is very mobile as well and that will help.
All of the line starters are capable of moving the man mountains they face in the opponents defense.
I did see a step back last year from the prior year's offensive line play and I hope that facet of the game returns to earlier form.
SicSemperTyrannis
May 17, 2023 at 12:49 am
Big time, yes! I saw last season as trying to get the run going and the O line just couldn't. How much of that was Rogers I couldn't tell.
Coaching has a LOT to do with this. Merit determining the roster has been lacking, IMHO. I don't think there's a lack of talent.
BA4Packers
May 16, 2023 at 08:51 am
Play calling, trusting your receivers, more athleticism behind center and getting the ball out in time are the biggest improvements we should see this year.
SicSemperTyrannis
May 17, 2023 at 12:51 am
In game adjustments were non-existent last season. O line adjustments were finally made when, week 10? Should have been halftime of week 1, at the latest.
Packers2020
May 16, 2023 at 08:54 am
Royce Newman and Jake Hanson. LOL.
Leatherhead
May 16, 2023 at 08:57 am
We have 5 good starters, and one reliable replacement. After that, we have Newman, Hanson, and a bunch of guys who've never played a snap in the NFL. So those people that don't want to see Newman and Hanson on the field? Prepare for disappointment, because that's what is going to happen when/if guys start getting injured.
I don't see Tom, a Day 3 guy in his second year, beating out Myers, who was regarded as better than Creed Humphrey by the organization and who started immediately as a rookie, and he played last year coming back from a bad injury with a changing cast of characters next to him. I think it's far more likely that Tom is the first guy called when we get an injury, and that's almost certain to happen. So call him the sixth starter.
That's the good news. The bad news is that right now, Newman and Hanson are #7 and #8.
The_Baloney_Stops_Here
May 16, 2023 at 06:24 pm
Its not necessarily that they thought Myers was better than Humphrey as an apples to apples comparison. Myers was the bigger and more powerful player whereas Humphrey was the smaller, more athletic player. As we've seen, the run game has become less about the wide zone (which typically utilizes smaller athletic blockers like Humphrey) and began playing more gap and inside zone run schemes (which are better suited for bigger and stronger guys like Myers). Its never about which guy is the better player in a vacuum. Its about projecting which player fits better with what you're trying to do. Myers' career is still young. He could become a star just like Linsley or Lang, both of whom had really rough starts to their careers only to become excellent players and leaders for this team. Draft and development is about who makes it, not who makes it the fastest.
SicSemperTyrannis
May 17, 2023 at 12:56 am
There's a lot of talent not mentioned. "Draft and develop" should be center stage right now, along with setting up real competition for the roster, which should get everybody prepared.
Last year we didn't have a team on the field for 60 minutes except for maybe the second Vikings game. 100% effort on every down, I see all this on coaches. I'm not seeing a lack of talent.
packerbackerjim
May 16, 2023 at 08:57 am
I’m a lot more concerned about the OL, running back the same guys as last year. They couldn’t block when it mattered most, the 4th quarter, MLF has a lot riding on this year. Maybe Gute,Butkus and Milt Hendrickson have justifiable optimism in this unit,
SicSemperTyrannis
May 17, 2023 at 12:57 am
In game adjustments, can MLF do it?
Turophile
May 16, 2023 at 09:24 am
Interesting to note that Cory mentioned Myers, who most people didn't think played that well last year...................and didn't mention Runyan, who has been fine at guard. If he (Myers) was injured, I didn't hear about it (though to be fair I could easily have missed it).
Also, I'd be looking for a big jump by Sean Rhyan, the 6'5", 320 lb, UCLA Tackle/Guard drafted at the bottom of round three last year. He had a very rocky start, but if he hasn't been feeling the fire lit under him after last season, he must be wearing some serious asbestos pants.
Putting aside the failed drug test, fans almost expect to see rookies shine (as Tom did), but in reality some guys take a bit longer to 'get it'. The guy was a good college player and has the look of an NFL lineman. T.J. Lang, a plus left guard for the Packers for several years, admitted that he didn't take things seriously enough the first two years he was with the Packers and said he could easily have lost his job before he buckled down and became a solid player.
Sean has great strength and uses his hands really well. He has good but not great feet and his arm length is a sneeze under 32 1/2", so his talents probably fit guard better than tackle.
Tom, to me, could be the LT after Bakhtiari goes. I'm not sure who is the better LT between him and Nijman..........and there is always the possibility that Elgton Jenkins shifts over to LT after Bakh is gone (which I suspect happens after this season). The Packers do have plenty of choice with E.J and Tom able to play almost anywhere on the line.
jhtobias
May 16, 2023 at 10:29 am
Corey I do believe Sean Ryan should be fiven this summer to see what he has it is only fair .
As for center Gute does always mention Zach Tom best position is center and trufully Josh Meyers was always mentioned as a guy who could be a good guard.
Rasheed walker is interesting lets see if he has taken a huge 2nd yr .
But come on with jake hanson in 3 yrs he has done nothing but kill the running game and get rodgers sacked e ertime he was in .
Royce Newman is like a 9th or 10 lineman .
The_Baloney_Stops_Here
May 16, 2023 at 06:17 pm
Unless the guy is just a complete basket case, I have to imagine he will be given every opportunity to prove himself.
MooPack
May 16, 2023 at 10:52 am
I'm not as confidant in the OL. They have an aging, hopefully will stay healthy, gone by next year LT (Bakh). An All-Pro LG (Jenkins), average C (Myers) and RG (Runyan), and a slightly out of position RT, probably better LT (Nijman). And a versatile riser in 6th man Tom. Other than that, a below average Newman, a shouldn't even be on the team Hanson, and the great unknown. With luck these coaches can get one or two of them up to playing speed. I'd be riding Rhyan constantly and pair him with a buddy like Jenkins to make sure he keeps his head out of his...
A couple of guys get dinged for any length of time and it could have a big impact on how well MLF/Love can run this offense. I'm optimistic the new TE's pick up blocking assignments quickly. The coaches are going to have a BIG spotlight on them this year.
Ultimately my biggest beef is this line couldn't get it done in short yardage/goal line last year. Pray some better play calling will get the job done this year. Otherwise, OL, along with Safety (again), and RB will be top needs next year.
SicSemperTyrannis
May 17, 2023 at 01:04 am
Agreed on terrible plays called in short yardage situations last season. I certainly don't know if all that was AR12 or what. Tons of O line talent in "the great unknown," draft and develop needs to be real, as well as competition with merit determining the roster.
LambeauPlain
May 16, 2023 at 12:18 pm
"Yosh Nijman, Royce Newman and Jake Hanson have all started at least one game — and the entire trio will likely begin the season on the bench."
Naming Yosh in the same sentence as Newman and Hanson is a huge disservice to him. Yosh will very likely be the starting RT and hopefully the other two never see the field this season.
I was very impressed with Tom's snaps inside at LG. His quick feet that serve him so well in pass pro show up in his wide zone blocking too. He gets to his spot quickly and with leverage.
I would like to see a RG competition between Myers and Runyan. Rodgers called out Runyan a few times last year for his smarts and blocking.
greengold
May 16, 2023 at 12:35 pm
"Naming Yosh in the same sentence as Newman and Hanson is a huge disservice to him."
Sacrilege!
SicSemperTyrannis
May 17, 2023 at 01:06 am
If Myers is competing for RG who do you see as the starting Center?
greengold
May 20, 2023 at 10:54 am
Zach Tom all the way. Gutekunst stated before the draft that he felt Center was Tom’s best position.
BirdDogUni
May 16, 2023 at 01:30 pm
I know I am late to the party, but I don't think there is any way 69 is on the roster after the trade deadline. I could be wrong, but I just can't imagine Gutey doesn't trade him. I don't know when Gutey will trade him, but it wouldn't surprise me if he wasn't on the roster 2 June.
I'm getting old, so my memory isn't as good as it used to be, but Nijman played a pretty good LT when Bakh was out for a whole season. If in fact, Gutey were to trade 69, I could easily see Yosh playing LT this year.
If everyone is healthy, (which won't happen, because someone always gets hurt) we have multiple lineups on the OL we could use, because so many of our guys are versatile.
Week One - if everyone is healthy, I expect: Nijman - Jenkins - (Meyers or Tom) - Runyan - ? There are like 6 guys who might be playing RT. It may be a free-for-all in TC to see who steps up and plays RT. So many possible combinations, it just depends on health and development.
Nijman - Jenkins - Meyers - Runyan - Walker or Jones would be my guess to start. If Tom were to beat out Meyers at Center, it wouldn't hurt my feelings in the least, but Meyers in his 3rd year at Center might be better than Tom in his 2nd year, IDK.
I would love to see what it looks like with Nijman - Jenkins - Meyers - Walker - Jones as our starting five, if they proved to be the best five... Having Tom, Runyan, and Rhyan as our next three coming off the bench would/could be wicked, IMO.
greengold
May 16, 2023 at 03:34 pm
BDU... LOL.
Caleb Jones has 36" arms. His wingspan is 86 5/8"... wow.
That's it! I'm IN!
BirdDogUni
May 16, 2023 at 05:16 pm
Hell gg, it'll take an edge rusher two plays just to get around him... (Meaning he's so big it would take him longer to get around him than the play would last.) Not a guy alive who could bull rush him, IMO. Maybe a cheater with a push-pull move could get by him, but not many could. Walker isn't as big as Jones, but could you imagine them at RG and RT?
Even our 245 lb AJ Dillon could hide behind them, let alone Aaron Jones or Lew...
greengold
May 16, 2023 at 05:25 pm
Yes, I can imagine that. It would be nuts in the run game. I think the TC battles for positions will be epic.
So much will change here if they move Bak.
Turophile
May 17, 2023 at 06:27 am
I don't think Bakhtiari gets traded (or let go) this season. He can be the reliable rock at left tackle that allows Love the confidence in his rookie year as starter, to stay in the pocket that moment longer. It just makes too much sense to keep him.
However, after this season is over, I do believe Bakhtiari is gone, whether released or gone to another team. Whoever becomes the next LT (Nijman, Tom, Jenkins, or someone not yet on the roster) starts there in 2024.
If the Packers DO let Bakhtiari go after this season, I'd say that the most likely spot to draft (on the O line) next year is right tackle, as I believe both Nijman and Tom fit better at LT.
Rudedawg67
May 16, 2023 at 04:17 pm
I think the o-line took a step backwards when Stenavich was promoted to OC. He was a great line coach and when all the injuries happened in 2021 he did more with less.
BirdDogUni
May 16, 2023 at 05:24 pm
Totally agree.
The_Baloney_Stops_Here
May 16, 2023 at 08:10 pm
To be fair, what oline coach wouldnt look like lesser of a coach when starting the season without his all-pro left tackle and left guard? Zack Tom looked pretty damn good almost right away. Is that not an example of good coaching by Steno?