5 Guys that Have to be Good: Vince Biegel
By Ross Uglem
5 guys that have to be good is a series that I've been running for a number of years. It focuses on five Packers players that need to have good seasons for Green Bay to return to Super Bowl glory. You won't see Aaron Rodgers or even Davante Adams on this list. It's not a list of obvious guys that make a ton of money that have to play well for the team to succeed. These are "X" Factors, like Desmond Bishop and Bryan Bulaga in 2010 that could mean another run at the Super Bowl.
Stay tuned to PackersTalk.com and of course CHTV the next few Fridays and Mondays for the rest of this series.
Here is the first 2018 "Guy", Geronimo Allison.
If there's one aspect of Mike Pettine's career as a defensive coordinator that should excite you, it should be his ability to generate pass rush with pass rushers that aren't necessarily elite. It's not too far back to remember when the outside linebackers were just Clay Matthews and a bunch of undrafted free agents. Guys like Erik Walden, Frank Zombo, and even further down memory lane like Jayrone Elliot and Vic So'Oto.
The Packers are actually quite a ways removed from that, at least from a draft capital persepective. If Kyler Fackrell can contribute (and there's not much reason to believe that that's coming down the road), the Packers would roll out a pair of first round picks as their starters, and a third round pick (Fackrell) teaming with the first pick in the fourth round from a year ago, Wisconsin's Vince Biegel.
Reality would tell you that Fackrell is likely to lose snaps to Reggie Gilbert, a talented pass rusher who went undrafted but played well in training camp, again in the preseason and then again when called upon in the regular season. Pettine has a long history of producing excellent defenses without superstar pass rushers up and down his roster. Just take a look at what he was able to do with Bryan Thomas, Vernon Gholston and Calvin Pace:
Mike Pettine was a very good defensive coordinator, and I do not like this one bit. https://t.co/Hb29WcEW7D
— Robert Mays (@robertmays) January 10, 2018
The real key, though is Biegel. The 1st pick in 2017's fourth round is a very high upside pass rushers with a starlitng athletic similarity to Clay Matthews.
| VB | CM3 | |
| Height | 6031 | 6031 |
| Weight | 246 | 240 |
| 40 | 4.67 | 4.67 |
| 3 cone | 6.92 | 6.9 |
| Vert | 33.5 | 35.5 |
Biegel thread since I'm the leader of the fan club https://t.co/QQs9Fawg4z
— Justis Mosqueda (@JuMosq) May 1, 2017
There isn't anyone on the internet I trust more on pass rush stuff than Justis Mosqueda, and Justis has always loved BIegel. He has the elite bend and plays with his hands above his eyes. Production was a reason for his drop as a prospect (just four sacks as a senior) but the same could easily be said for Matthews.
If Biegel can play, it's huge for Green Bay on a number of fronts. First of all, Matthews and Perry are liable to miss a game here or there. Their health issues are definitley overblown (Matthews has played in 58 of a possible 64 games the last four seasons, Perry in 55), but both players would be better served to stay on a reduced snap count. Matthews and Perry don't always have to play at the same time, they can rush with BIegel or with Gilbert. The goal, though, is to reduce their snaps and keep them fresh and healthy.
Aside from that, teams need four or five decent edge rushers to succed defensively anyway. Biegel and Matthews both have the size and speed to play all over the formation so maybe they can be utilized even with Perry on the field.
Biegel can also pitch in on special teams in a big way.
If he can't produce and Either Matthews or Perry do miss significant time, Green bay's pressure will come down to Pettine's scheme and scheme alone. Vince Biegel has to be good.
-------------------
Ross Uglem is a staff writer for Cheesehead TV. He can be found on Twitter @RossUglem
Comments (38)
Handsback
July 16, 2018 at 03:22 pm
An outside pass rusher other than Perry, and Matthews needs to shine. I don't care if it's Fackman/Gilbert/Biegel/ or fill in the blank. I would love to see Biegel break-out, but I doubt it happens this year.
Thegreatreynoldo
July 17, 2018 at 01:05 am
My first job out of High School was as a club pro at an indoor tennis club. Okay, actually, I swept the tennis courts. Over the next 35 years I Iearned so very much. Just seeing a broom makes me tear pieces of my hair out. The manufacturers of tennis balls will always be in my heart if they manage to design them so they don't leave fluff on the damn courts....
Iain
July 17, 2018 at 02:13 am
Nice.
I bleed green more
July 16, 2018 at 03:58 pm
Would love to see Biegel shine. I will take any of them anyone will do it do not care who.
Bearmeat
July 16, 2018 at 04:20 pm
Look, I would love for Biegel to usurp CM3 as the lead dog, or even to be the 3rd wheel this year with upside for more.
But until we see it, I'm not buying it. He was a 4th round pick. If teams loved him that much, they'd have taken him before D4, regardless of his injury history.
Let's also look at CM3 10 yd split compared to Vince's. It's much more accurate to production from the OLB position, and CM3's was out of this world coming out of college. Biegel's is good, not great.
He's a prospect. A good one. But depending on him to be a big time player is IMO foolish hoping at this point.
I hope to hell I'm wrong.
Samson
July 16, 2018 at 07:52 pm
You couldn't be more correct.
There is a better chance that Biegel is out of the NFL in 2-3 years than to be a "big time player" in season 2018. --- For anyone or the Pack to think that he will make a difference in 2018 is foolhardy, at best.
Oppy
July 16, 2018 at 11:57 pm
Yup. If your pass rusher is putting in 40 yards in a straight line on a play, it means he's not very successful getting to the passer lol.
lower body/core and hand strength, burst, change of direction, technique and just plain instincts are what make a pass rusher.
Ross Uglem
July 17, 2018 at 04:35 am
3 cone drill (listed) actually correlates to pass rush success at a higher rate than 10 yard split does.
Bearmeat
July 17, 2018 at 08:08 am
I'd like to see the stats backing that up, Ross. I really would.
My non-pro eye test says that Matthews was a freak of nature (drugs?) coming out of college, whereas Vince is "just" an excellent athlete. CM3's explosion and first 3 steps were unreal from 2009-2013.
Demon
July 17, 2018 at 09:00 am
I assume you are right about the drugs. CM3's college room mate was Brian Cushing. Cushing was drafted my the Texans and won defensive rookie of the year. Since then he has been suspended twice for steroids/PED's. CM3 was a walkon who didnt even start until his senior year. That is a big jump in 1 year, from nonstarter to NFL 1st round pick. Being that his college room mate was juiced.........birds of a feather.
Samson
July 17, 2018 at 07:39 pm
What are the facts, bud???
Of course you are correct.
It's very similar to watching MLB players in the late '90s hit home runs with one hand. --- Or Someone like R. Clemens throw 100 mph at the age of 45. It's all steroids/PED's.
Unfortunately, CM3 is all steroids/PED's. --- It's sad.
Oppy
July 19, 2018 at 04:15 pm
I would wager that the majority of NFL players are using PEDs.
It's more about who's getting away with it than who's using.
Rak43
July 16, 2018 at 04:53 pm
I really like Biegel and am hoping he shows a lot of improvement which will help the Packers tremendously. But his hype train reminds me of the Janis groupies that permeated the threads based on height weight speed potential. I see the same thing happening with Biegel, another player who has proven Zero on the field being talked about like he's the savior of the Packs defense or an all-pro just waiting to happen,lmao.
Demon
July 16, 2018 at 09:05 pm
Dont forget the Jared (Abby) Abbbredaris groupies. I saw one poster on another site, post over and over that "Abby" was going to be better than Sterling Sharpe. Bwahahaha
Barnacle
July 18, 2018 at 05:46 pm
I hope you are not like Peth And Spader?
Andrew Lloyd Peth
July 20, 2018 at 08:01 am
Huh? What are you talking about, Barney? Are you, like, replacing WKU as my new deranged stalker?
WKUPackFan
July 20, 2018 at 10:17 am
Says the person who supports a President of the United States who believes Putin over our own intelligence agencies. A person who supports a President of the United States who wants to allow Russia to interrogate our intelligence agents. Presidential actions that the Senate censured by an 88-0 vote.
Maybe you should tell us what anthem you want the players to stand for.
4EVER
July 20, 2018 at 02:04 pm
Says the low information voter...
WKUPackFan
July 21, 2018 at 03:43 am
So you, as a "high information" voter, approve of the Traitor In Chief selling us out to Putin. Your "high information" brain does not believe that the Senate vote occurred?
Savage57
July 16, 2018 at 05:44 pm
Anyone else notice Ho Green's name on that 2009 Jets lineup?
TKWorldWide
July 16, 2018 at 08:43 pm
I did notice.
I wonder if he and his brother CeeLo argue about who’s the more talented one.
Bert
July 16, 2018 at 06:52 pm
Let's not get ahead of ourselves as far as Biegel is concerned. First he has to get on the field and stay on the field. Not gonna count on him to "take the leap" or provide any impact until he can show he is physically/medically capable of simply being available.
carlos
July 16, 2018 at 07:18 pm
Right on Bert. Injuries key to everything. If the rushers as a whole could stay healthy we’ll be fine.
Cubbygold
July 16, 2018 at 10:17 pm
Matthews health concerns are not overblown. He may have played in 58/64 games, but a high number of those games saw him with limited snaps or largely ineffective when in the game due to pulled hammys. At this stage of his career GB is lucky if they get 12 quality games out of him.
Andrew Lloyd Peth
July 16, 2018 at 10:32 pm
Excellent point. With Clay, it's not how many games he misses, but how many he's well under 100%.
Andrew Lloyd Peth
July 16, 2018 at 10:35 pm
I really like Biegel. I don't know about the "savior" type gushing some people do, but I think he's an ideal fit for this defensive scheme.
If his health holds, the extra strength and camp reps should serve him well. He could be a real contributor this year.
Barnacle
July 17, 2018 at 09:09 am
Andy
I hope you are right this time.
Andrew Lloyd Peth
July 18, 2018 at 09:16 am
Ha. I just love the nastiness laced into comments from your group. Always loads of fun.
Bure9620
July 16, 2018 at 10:58 pm
Biegel will HAVE to be good. Agree with the article.
He will be relied on to have a roll in this scheme. Also, because CMIII will play inside and blitz at times.
In a 3-4 under (Pettine loves the 3-4 under). In this alignment, Clark is the Nose, Daniels will be a 3 tech, Mo wilk at the 5 tech with Perry as a rush end. This will leave Mike Daniels to 2-gap and play with his hair on fire. CMIII would play either inside and blitz or drop into coverage with Burks or Martinez. OR, CMIII plays the "Will" and will defend a cutback. That leaves the Sam backer to rush and play containment. It will have to be Biegel or Gilbert. If they want more speed on the field here on 3rd down and are worried about TE matchup they may drop Josh Jones down to the "Sam" and bring a 3rd Safety on. Beigel will play 30-40% of snaps. He has to in this scheme.
Oppy
July 17, 2018 at 12:04 am
5 guys who have to be good in 2018, a list by Oppy:
Aaron Rodgers
David Bakhtiari
Corey Linsley
Davante Adams
Someone in the Secondary
In Depth Analysis:
-Rodgers needs to be good at QBing
-Rodgers needs his blind side protected to be good at QBing
-Rodgers needs clean snaps to be good at QBing
-Rodgers needs someone to catch the balls his throws while QBing well to be of any use
-Can we catch a break and see what a solid performance by a CB might do to the W-L columns?
Tundraboy
July 17, 2018 at 01:36 pm
"Can we catch a break and see what a solid performance by a CB might do to the W-L columns?"
Love this. Can't recall when we last saw that over a full season.
MITM
July 17, 2018 at 01:49 am
We obviously cant know for sure yet whats in store for the defense under Pettine. But i think that the biggest hints as far as the general blueprint for success lie in where our strengths are, and where the depth is. I would feel completely different as far as personnel goes if I had to prepare myself for another year under Capers hammering round pegs into square holes. Another season of hearing about how him and Thompson insist on turning small school OLBs into ILBs, DEs into OLBs etc. and having no choice but to yet again trust a process that has been just as influential in coming up short of a ring as injuries were.
Biegel is going to get the same opportunity as anyone else on the defense to be crucial to our improvement. I know that Pettine is going to use his players to their strengths and set them up for success, instead of just hoping for the best - hoping for players to be somebody they were never going to be. Which is what we saw year in and year out with Capers.
Tundraboy
July 17, 2018 at 01:48 pm
At a minimum it's a new day. Just knowing that Pettine is a step forward is encouraging in and of itself. Excited to once again go into a season without that overwhelming sense that I'm fooling myself into believing the defense won't be a disaster.
NickPerry
July 17, 2018 at 02:52 am
There was a kid drafted by the Buffalo Bills #11 overall in 2009 named Aaron Maybin. The kid was supposed to be a pass rushing OLB from Penn St. but collected ZERO sacks in 2 years at Buffalo and was released. The Jets picked him up and Maybin had 6 sacks in 13 games and forced 4 fumbles in 2011...Not to shabby.
Those 6 sacks and 4 FF were a direct result of Pettine. I actually remember this quite well because I was wondering why the Packers didn't pick this guy up. Then of course I remembered WHO the Packers GM was.
Point is I recall hearing about Maybin on ESPN and the NFL Network and MUCH of the credit was given to the Jets scheme as a reason. Mike Pettine was the DC at that time for the Jets.
Now I agree with most, Biegel hasn't done anything yet BUT if there's a DC who's scheme can get the most out a player it's Pettine. Because Biegel REALLY does have one of those non-stop motors 100% of the time I for one think he'll be much more than just another hype train running through GB. I think he'll actually do something.
Andrew Lloyd Peth
July 17, 2018 at 05:52 am
Maybin was basically a missile. Along the same lines but at a different position, I'd really like to see how Pettine enhances our pass rush with someone like Josh Jones.
Barnacle
July 17, 2018 at 09:11 am
Andy
Me too.
Thegreatreynoldo
July 18, 2018 at 12:56 am
LOL, Nick, you really hate Capers/TT. I looked Maybin up. Pettine made something out of him for 2011. Whatever Maybin had dried up in 2012 even though he was still with the Jets. In 8 games (119 snaps), he had one tackle with no sacks, and was unceremoniously dumped mid-season despite being healthy, and despite having been given a $400K signing bonus (about $588K today). Looks like there was a reason TT didn't pick him up? No one else did either: he was out of football.
I looked a little further. He did have 9 QB pressures in those 119 snaps. That's a good number as a stat. Moreover, NYJ only had 16 sacks in their first 9 games (extrapolates to 28 sacks over a 16 game season - they finished with 30 sacks, while their opponents had 47 sacks for context). Still, Pettine managed to have the 8th ranked defense by yards (20th by points allowed, but the Jets offense was awful, ranking 30th).
http://www.espn.com/new-york/nfl/story/_/id/8628834/aaron-maybin-cut-new...
NickPerry
July 18, 2018 at 05:05 am
LOL....You SAW that follow up season huh??....Damn!!
YES...I really did dislike Thompson and Capers though my disdain for Thompson runs deep and IMO is the reason why the Packers had one SB appearance in his time as GM. Actually I liked Thompson in the early years as GM. I've split Thompson's career more than once here into periods. The 2005 to 2011 or so. Thompson seemed to be able to get a lot from rounds 1-4 in his drafts those years. Maybe not all the picks, but when he hit he HIT in those years. But from 20111 through the end of 2016 not so much, he didn't to do nearly as well. (Still holding out hope or 2017) Now I would consider Thompson and Capers to both be bright guys. But WHY couldn't they see the benefit of Julius Peppers and what he brought to that defense. IF they did wouldn't they have tried to bring in a few other players who could make a difference? They did in 2006 W/Pickett & Wood and it happened again with Peppers.
As far as Capers is concerned I started posting the stat about his defenses in the 2011 season. He was a DC who could go in and turnaround a defense in his first 3 years but after that his defenses fell off a cliff. His defenses in GB were no different. At least with Capers everybody knew you had 3 goods years and that was it. Well everybody but MM and TT.